Is it time to reopen the country?

[S209]

Indefinite means without a defined end, not forever.

Most of those advocating a continued lockdown have no plan for when this will end

As far as the vaccine at best that is many months away. Additionally they have been trying to make a flu vaccine for decades and it is still only 60% effective in a good year and 20% effective in a bad year. No guarantees they will be more successful with this

What are you advocating for? Please make a position clear, so it can be debated. You are attacking a nonexistent position instead of providing an alternative.

[Kobe Bryant]

What are you advocating for? Please make a position clear, so it can be debated. You are attacking a nonexistent position instead of providing an alternative.

Pretty ironic, you have been doing this for the entirety of the thread

[avromie7]

Who is doing that??

Our dear governor Murphy. Allowing curbside pickup and drive up services don't count as opening up.

[etech0]

Our dear governor Murphy. Allowing curbside pickup and drive up services don't count as opening up.

you forgot about construction

[S209]

Our dear governor Murphy. Allowing curbside pickup and drive up services don't count as opening up.

It is the first step in a phased reopening, although I agree he is not doing it fast enough or smartly enough

[etech0]

It is the first step in a phased reopening, although I agree he is not doing it fast enough or smartly enough

Does he say anywhere what the later steps will be?

this doesn't count: https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/gov-murphy-unveils-6-point-coronavirus-reopening-strategy-with-no-timetable-to-lift-lockdown-restrictions.html

[S209]

Pretty ironic, you have been doing this for the entirety of the thread

What have I been doing? Advocating for indefinite lockdown?

[avromie7]

Everybody needs to come up with a plan that works for everybody. You are making it black and white again. Why do the options need to be indefinite lockdown and complete reopening?

Anyone who has an issue with it is more than welcome to stay locked down, especially people at high risk. The original goal of flatten the curve so we don't overwhelm the healthcare system wa as achieved weeks ago, that's when a nuanced slow open may have been ok.

[ari3]

What are you advocating for? Please make a position clear, so it can be debated. You are attacking a nonexistent position instead of providing an alternative.

I posed questions directed at those that are advocating a continued lockdown (which you seem to be advocating). Instead of answering the questions you are trying to twist everything like a pretzel

[S209]

Anyone who has an issue with it is more than welcome to stay locked down, especially people at high risk. The original goal of flatten the curve so we don't overwhelm the healthcare system wa as achieved weeks ago, that's when a nuanced slow open may have been ok.

BH the systems won’t be overwhelmed. Flatten the curve was an answer to skeptics who said “we’re all going to catch it anyway”, the answer was “even so we’ll still save lives by spreading it out”. Why is it a bad thing to prevent more people from actually getting sick and dying? Now that we flattened the curve we must let everyone out at once and negate everything that was accomplished?

[etech0]

Why is it a bad thing to prevent more people from actually getting sick and dying? Now that we flattened the curve we must let everyone out at once and negate everything that was accomplished?

So at what point will it be okay for everything to reopen?

[Lurker]

(almost) no one is dumb enough to say it. Anyone still pushing lockdown without a serious plan on how to end the lockdown is by definition pushing indefinite lockdown.

A) Didn't actually answer my question. B) You keep using the term "lockdown." I don't know what this is. To my knowledge, there has been no lockdown in this country due to covid-19. There have been state and local stay-at-home ordinances restricting gatherings, but by and large, people have been able to move around freely. You say lockdown like we're at war and people will get shot if they leave their homes. It's rhetoric like this which exacerbates the debate and the divide.

[S209]

I posed questions directed at those that are advocating a continued lockdown (which you seem to be advocating). Instead of answering the questions you are trying to twist everything like a pretzel

Please quote where I have advocated for a continued lockdown. I am advocating for a responsible and safe reopening. We have ramped up testing capacity, lowered active infections, discovered more about transmission and treatment, and educated many peopleas  to the risks. Many health care workers hopefully have antibodies, and there is probably some more immunity through the general population as well. We want to prevent a sharp surge in new infections so it needs to be done smartly, not just letting everyone out at once, but I am for reopening most businesses in a safe and regulated manner. You seem to be for no regulation, is that accurate?

[ari3]

you forgot about construction

a lot of construction was going on anyway. I heard from a friend who is a contractor that there were enough loopholes in the law that he didn't have to stop

[S209]

So at what point will it be okay for everything to reopen?

Everything? Each time we introduce a new phase of openings and loosening restrictions that doesn’t blow up, we can move on to the next step.

[etech0]

a lot of construction was going on anyway.

Yep

[etech0]

Everything? Each time we introduce a new phase of openings and loosening restrictions that doesn’t blow up, we can move on to the next step.

And that will prevent any more people from dying? Or will the same people die, over a longer period of time?
I don't know the answer to that.

[S209]

a lot of construction was going on anyway. I heard from a friend who is a contractor that there were enough loopholes in the law that he didn't have to stop

So was the curbside pickup..

[S209]

And that will prevent any more people from dying?

Presumably, yes. The less active infections spread to people, the less people die. That is the presumptive equation we are operating with.

[etech0]

So was the curbside pickup..

+1