Author Topic: Dropping Antibody Levels  (Read 29242 times)

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #140 on: May 15, 2020, 04:10:50 PM »
Well, he could have been referring to Sullivan County officials who early on said they wouldn’t allow it and one congressman sent a letter to Cuomo. They changed their tune later on.
He said very clearly that NYS has told the camps they are pulling the permits. He sent out a message trying to clarify but it was very clear that he got caught in a lie.

Offline biobook

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #141 on: May 15, 2020, 05:07:01 PM »
That graph shows IgG staying in the blood, not dropping to nil as the Dr claimed.
Like I said, hopefully just faulty testing.
This is not my field, but here's how I understand it:
The graph is just meant to show how symptoms and antibodies change over time, but is not showing real data (note the lack of numbers on the y-axis and the Disclaimer below the graph).  The red line shows that IgG decreases after the infection has been fought off, then the line stops in midair. It doesn't necessarily mean that the levels plateau there, just that nobody knows exactly what will happen next.  Like the edge of medieval maps, where dragons and sea-serpents indicated that nobody really knows what's beyond this point.  It IS normal for the body to stop wasting energy producing a specific antibody when it's no longer needed, but it's not yet known how quickly the levels will go down, how far, for how long, etc.

The text on the graph seems a little misleading, where it says "IgG provides long-term immunity".  The ability to fight off future infections does not occur because of the presence of those antibodies in the blood, but rather because of the presence of memory B cells, which "remember" how to produce that particular antibody.   

During the first infection, antibodies are produced to fight the infection, which (in this graph) took about 12 days to reach an effective level, and in the interim, the virus caused disease symptoms. 

In a second infection, the memory B cells pour out IgG antibodies immediately, reaching an effective level so quickly that the virus is neutralized before symptoms can appear.  So IgG IS involved in long-term immunity, but it's not the remaining antibodies from the first infection, but rather similar, newly-produced IgG antibodies.

This is diagrammed on Fig. 2 on this page, don't know how to insert:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-biology2/chapter/immunological-memory/

So this might be what yeshivabucher expressed in other words:

No your body still retain the ability to spool up again it's just no longer on red alert

Offline chevron

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #142 on: May 15, 2020, 05:17:59 PM »
Could you provide a source of this supposed reinfection of sailors?

It would be the first recorded reinfection.

You accuse me of not listening, I listen to doctors. But I will never listen to that unhinged doctor who has been proven wrong time and time again and has lied and tried to ruin people’s lives just to try and get some attention.

https://vosizneias.com/2020/05/15/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #143 on: May 15, 2020, 05:22:16 PM »
https://vosizneias.com/2020/05/15/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/
real great source but either way
Quote
One U.S. official familiar with the situation on the ship said commanders don’t know why this is happening but suggested it could be related to questions about testing accuracy. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, said that screening has been intensified on the ship. And, anyone who exhibits any flu-like symptoms at all is being tested and removed.

The sailors have been tested using the nasal swab. And in some cases the infection can be at such a low level that it is not detected by the test. It’s not clear whether cases like these are actual relapses, or if people tested negative without really being completely clear of the virus.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #144 on: May 15, 2020, 05:24:49 PM »
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #145 on: May 15, 2020, 05:36:01 PM »
This is not my field, but here's how I understand it:
The graph is just meant to show how symptoms and antibodies change over time, but is not showing real data (note the lack of numbers on the y-axis and the Disclaimer below the graph).  The red line shows that IgG decreases after the infection has been fought off, then the line stops in midair. It doesn't necessarily mean that the levels plateau there, just that nobody knows exactly what will happen next.  Like the edge of medieval maps, where dragons and sea-serpents indicated that nobody really knows what's beyond this point.  It IS normal for the body to stop wasting energy producing a specific antibody when it's no longer needed, but it's not yet known how quickly the levels will go down, how far, for how long, etc.

The text on the graph seems a little misleading, where it says "IgG provides long-term immunity".  The ability to fight off future infections does not occur because of the presence of those antibodies in the blood, but rather because of the presence of memory B cells, which "remember" how to produce that particular antibody.   

During the first infection, antibodies are produced to fight the infection, which (in this graph) took about 12 days to reach an effective level, and in the interim, the virus caused disease symptoms. 

In a second infection, the memory B cells pour out IgG antibodies immediately, reaching an effective level so quickly that the virus is neutralized before symptoms can appear.  So IgG IS involved in long-term immunity, but it's not the remaining antibodies from the first infection, but rather similar, newly-produced IgG antibodies.

This is diagrammed on Fig. 2 on this page, don't know how to insert:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-biology2/chapter/immunological-memory/

So this might be what yeshivabucher expressed in other words:

Thanks!
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #146 on: May 15, 2020, 06:01:42 PM »
real great source but either way
I always knew you use the best and most up to date medical journals for your research.
https://apnews.com/0cae34376380ab4150002a58bd9934b9

Better?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #147 on: May 15, 2020, 06:05:07 PM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #148 on: May 15, 2020, 06:09:26 PM »
if i tested negative for AB means that I'll never know if I'm immune?
["-"]

Offline Eru Ilúvatar

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #149 on: May 15, 2020, 06:29:23 PM »
As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.


Offline AsherO

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #150 on: May 15, 2020, 06:30:34 PM »
As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.

+1000

Armchair epidemiology is several orders of magnitude easier than armchair immunology.

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2020, 06:34:03 PM »
Thanks!
These are the posts that make DDF shine. I think @biobook has the most "posts with substance" ratio.

Offline chevron

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2020, 06:40:14 PM »
As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.

I have never said that I know anything and I have quoted many great doctors who said that the more they understand about the virus the more they realize that they don't understand anything.

I haven't been trying to be a fear monger I'm trying to get people to just try to understand that we don't know what we're dealing with and we should be careful.

I'm making no attempt to scare people I'm making attempt to wake people up to various things or some of them known some of them unknown that's all
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 06:53:51 PM by chevron »

Offline simple26

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2020, 01:20:37 AM »
This is not my field, but here's how I understand it:
The graph is just meant to show how symptoms and antibodies change over time, but is not showing real data (note the lack of numbers on the y-axis and the Disclaimer below the graph).  The red line shows that IgG decreases after the infection has been fought off, then the line stops in midair. It doesn't necessarily mean that the levels plateau there, just that nobody knows exactly what will happen next.  Like the edge of medieval maps, where dragons and sea-serpents indicated that nobody really knows what's beyond this point.  It IS normal for the body to stop wasting energy producing a specific antibody when it's no longer needed, but it's not yet known how quickly the levels will go down, how far, for how long, etc.

The text on the graph seems a little misleading, where it says "IgG provides long-term immunity".  The ability to fight off future infections does not occur because of the presence of those antibodies in the blood, but rather because of the presence of memory B cells, which "remember" how to produce that particular antibody.   

During the first infection, antibodies are produced to fight the infection, which (in this graph) took about 12 days to reach an effective level, and in the interim, the virus caused disease symptoms. 

In a second infection, the memory B cells pour out IgG antibodies immediately, reaching an effective level so quickly that the virus is neutralized before symptoms can appear.  So IgG IS involved in long-term immunity, but it's not the remaining antibodies from the first infection, but rather similar, newly-produced IgG antibodies.

This is diagrammed on Fig. 2 on this page, don't know how to insert:
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/wm-biology2/chapter/immunological-memory/

So this might be what yeshivabucher expressed in other words:

As someone who is learning this stuff right now, I can tell you all that immunology is frighteningly complex, and unless anyone in this thread has expert knowledge in it (and can interpret things like this: https://www.biolegend.com/Files/Images/BioLegend/pathways/ImmPoster.jpg), I suggest that this is all an exercise in futility.
As you guys sound pretty knowledgeable maybe you can explain for the the simple guys what would prove immunity and why a lot of Doctors are saying it might take a long time to prove it
For example say its memory B cells you need can’t someone be tested for their presence?

Offline biobook

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #154 on: May 18, 2020, 07:19:59 PM »
Most of what I know about coronavirus I've learned through DD, so I'm sure there are many here more knowledgeable than me!  But I'll try to provide an answer of sorts to what I think you're asking, and perhaps others can correct it.

A test for B memory cells wouldn't necessarily get you the information you want, because, for example, one could have B memory cells that are physically present, but that are not functioning properly to produce sufficient antibodies.  What you really want is not to know your level of B cells or any of the other cells and molecules in the fascinating poster that Eru Ilúvatar posted, but rather to know whether you're immune to a second infection of coronavirus.  And rather than answering this by dissecting and analyzing all the components of your own immune system, it makes more sense to answer this for the general case:  Do humans develop immunity to this coronavirus after a first infection?

Answering this would take a long time, as the doctors have told you.  If you want to know whether people are immune for two months or 6 months or 1 year or 2 years after their first infection, then obviously you have to wait two months or 6 months or 1 year or 2 years to get your answer.   There are two ways to study this:

1. Experimental:  Take a group of people who have recovered from Covid-19, infect them with the virus, and watch them over the next two weeks to see whether or not they get sick with Covid-19 a second time.

This kind of deliberate infection research has been done in the past, most famously when Nazi doctors infected people with tuberculosis or typhoid, and took careful scientific notes as they watched the infected people get sicker and sicker and finally die.  The post-war trial that disclosed this research horrified the world, not because it was worse than other Nazi atrocities, but because it was conducted by doctors who had taken an oath to use their skills in healing.  In response, international and national guidelines were composed that now regulate research on human health. 

To do this sort of experiment today, researchers would first need to decide on the exact details of the protocol they will use, including:
What people will you test?  Males, females, or both?  Young, old, or both?  Those who had severe symptoms, mild symptoms, no symptoms, or all of these?  Those who were treated with particular medications?  Those who had tested positive for the virus only, for the antibody only, or both? Etc.
How will you infect them?  Inject them with the virus, or spray it on their face with a sneeze-machine?
Which virus will you use?  Several mutated versions are known to exist already. 
What dose of the virus will you use?  If nobody gets sick, you won't know whether that's because they're immune, or whether you used too small of a dose to cause disease.  If you use too large a dose, and people are not sufficiently immune, you might cause an especially severe disease response.
If people DO get sick after this second infection, how will you treat them?  There are ethical issues in infecting someone with a potentially fatal disease before we have clearly effective treatments.
How will you obtain informed consent?  This means that anyone who participates in the experiment has to agree that they are doing so voluntarily, and have been informed of what might happen to them as a result of this participation.  For example, they might have a slight reaction at the site of the injection, but not get sick beyond that.  That of course is what we're hoping for, and it certainly would be great if that's the result. It's also possible that immunity does not develop, and the people will develop Covid-19 a second time. That would be annoying to go through that again, but at least people know what they're getting into.  But there's a third possibility, which is that following the second infection they will have a worse reaction than the first time.  Perhaps their immune system was partially weakened the first time, and now they are less able to cope and develop a more severe case.  Perhaps they had slight unnoticeable changes to the blood vessels the first time, and with the second infection, they are more likely to develop clotting disorders.  As far as I know, these last possibilities just exist in my imagination, but the point is that the researchers would have to consider all the things that might go wrong, and notify the participants in the experiment of these in advance.

After the researchers have figured out all these and other details, they would have to send this protocol to a review board, which would discuss whether the experiment, as proposed, is ethical and whether it is likely to lead to significant findings.  They might ask for changes, or they might turn it down entirely.  Or they might approve it, at which time the researchers would start looking for people willing to be subjects in the experiment. 

There are probably researchers considering this sort of experiment, but the process above could take weeks or months, so the rest of us won't hear about it until they announce that they're looking for subjects. 

2. Observational.  The second way to determine immunity is to simply wait for people who've recovered from Covid-19 to leave home and lead more normal lives, during which time some of them will inevitable come in contact with the virus again.  People who get sick with Covid-19 will be asked about their previous infections and previous positive tests for the virus or antibodies, and researchers will be able to analyze how many, if any, of the new Covid-19 cases are in people who had an earlier confirmed Covid-19 infection.  If no new infections occur in those who've had confirmed Covid-19 in the past, then we can assume that a first infection causes immunity. 

Again, if those with previous infections don't get sick for two months, we'll only know that immunity lasts two months.  It will take longer to find out whether this immunity is longer-lasting.

This study will take longer than the previous one, because you have to wait for people to incidentally meet up with a virus somewhere, rather than infecting them deliberately all at once, but it can be started more quickly.  In fact, it's started already.  We've heard of a few cases in China and South Korea that suggested that a recovered patient had gotten sick a second time, and researchers there are trying to figure out exactly what that means. Is this really a second infection, or a continuation of the first?  Was the first infection really the flu? There will undoubtedly be more such cases in the US as people increase their social activity.


Offline Dan

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #155 on: May 18, 2020, 07:29:30 PM »
We've heard of a few cases in China and South Korea that suggested that a recovered patient had gotten sick a second time, and researchers there are trying to figure out exactly what that means. Is this really a second infection, or a continuation of the first?  Was the first infection really the flu? There will undoubtedly be more such cases in the US as people increase their social activity.
Or are they people whose bodies just don't produce lasting immunity?

Love your posts by the way!
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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #156 on: May 18, 2020, 07:33:32 PM »
Or are they people whose bodies just don't produce lasting immunity?

Love your posts by the way!
I thought someone posted an article here saying that the Korean cases were false positives or dead RNA or something like that.

+1!
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Offline biobook

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #157 on: May 18, 2020, 07:51:11 PM »
Thanks, Dan!  Likewise!

Yes, those possibilities, and more (no immunity after the first infection, or the first infection was a false positive, etc.)

My point was only that when studying this experimentally, you can take 1000 people today, selected for having a particular prior experience, infect them in a controlled setting, and get a pretty clear-cut answer in a few weeks.

When you wait for people to become infected naturally, the new cases dribble in, one by one, each one with different prior experiences.  And each one has to be analyzed to figure out exactly what had been going on with them in the first and second infections, and so this will take much longer to get an answer.

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2020, 06:37:19 PM »
Anything could be.........

But antibody are only developed a few weeks in to the virus.
If you could still be spreading the virus while having anti bodies then the virus is contagious for more then a month. Something nobody says.
You could test positive for weeks after the virus is gone. It's from dead cells.
 


Wrong.

Next...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-19/covid-patients-testing-positive-after-recovery-aren-t-infectious

Still Wrong?

Next?

« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:40:33 PM by presidentialplus »

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Re: Dropping Antibody Levels
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2020, 07:19:56 PM »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-19/covid-patients-testing-positive-after-recovery-aren-t-infectious

Still Wrong?

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Where was this confirmed? Last I checked it was a theory that many doctors were assuming (hoping?).
Perhaps the theory was now confirmed :)
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