What is your favorite Biden gaffe?

[Eb228]

https://rebgershonribner.com/does-disdain-and-scorn-from-the-secular-public-constitute-a-chillul-hashem

Quotes some of the sources quoted above (or "misquoted" sources above)

[YitzyS]

https://rebgershonribner.com/does-disdain-and-scorn-from-the-secular-public-constitute-a-chillul-hashem

Quotes some of the sources quoted above (or "misquoted" sources above)

Where were you with this clip when we were discussing the Eifo Yossele article in Mishpacha Magazine?

[TimT]

https://twitter.com/YakiAdamker/status/1549336572792905730

[PlatinumGuy]

Rashi in Yoma 86a seems pretty clear that kiddush/chilul Hashem is about doing mitzvos or aveiros.
חילול השם - חוטא ומחטיא אחרים

Not necessarily, Rashi can be explained as saying חילול ה׳ is a חטא, and it itself causes people to be less careful with Averios in general.

The Gemara there is explicitly discussing cases like יהיב זוזא להאי וזוזא להאי and מאחר לפרוע that isn't any Aveira other than Chilul Hashem

It doesn't say this in any of those sources

Yes, it does

[aygart]

Yes, it does

We can either leave it here or you can explain how you see it in any of those sources

[dm123]

Not necessarily, Rashi can be explained as saying חילול ה׳ is a חטא, and it itself causes people to be less careful with Averios in general.

Not sure I quite see what you're seeing in Rashi. Please explain?

[PlatinumGuy]

https://rebgershonribner.com/does-disdain-and-scorn-from-the-secular-public-constitute-a-chillul-hashem

Quotes some of the sources quoted above (or "misquoted" sources above)

Interesting that after listening for 9 minutes (to something that could've been said in less than 1 minute) all he says (at around 7 minutes in) is that he doesn't have an answer about the Gemara that clearly says at times we don't follow the Torah because goyim would think negatively of us.

[PlatinumGuy]

Not sure I quite see what you're seeing in Rashi. Please explain?

Rashi is explaining the severity of חילול השם - that one who transgresses it is doing both a חטא of Chilul Hashem and causing others to do other חטאים by having less respect of Hashem.

he Gemara there is explicitly discussing cases like יהיב זוזא להאי וזוזא להאי and מאחר לפרוע where there isn't any Aveira other than Chilul Hashem being done

[PlatinumGuy]

We can either leave it here or you can explain how you see it in any of those sources

This is a common fantasy. At times Kiddush hashem calls for not following the Torah solely in order to appear better in Goyims eyes. See following sources:

גיטין מ״ו א:ו׳-ז׳
ה ורבנן התם מי חלה שבועה עילוייהו כלל כיון דאמרו להו מארץ רחוקה באנו ולא באו לא חיילה שבועה עילוייהו כלל והאי דלא קטלינהו משום קדושת השם

Yehousha's army didn't kill גִּבְעוֹן וְהַכְּפִירָה, וּבְאֵרוֹת וְקִרְיַת יְעָרִים despite the chiyuv to kill 7 Omos because it would cause a Chilul Hashem despite it being a Mitzva to kill them. לא תחיה כל נשמה.

The Rambam is a repetition of the same case

תלמוד ירושלמי בבא קמא י״ט ב:ג׳
מעשה ששילח המלכות שני איסטרטיוטות ללמוד תורה מרבן גמליאל ולמדו ממנו מקרא משנה תלמוד הלכות ואגדות ובסוף אמרו לו כל תורתכם נאה ומשובחת חוץ משני דברים הללו שאתם אומרים בת ישראל לא תיילד לעכו"ם אבל עכו"ם מיילדת לבת ישראל ברשותה גזילו של ישראל אסור ושל עכו"ם מותר. באותו שעה גזר רבן גמליאל על גזילות עכו"ם שיהא אסור מפי חילול השם.

Chazal considered certain cases of theft a Chilul Hashem despite it being Mutar according to the Torah, only because Goyim would think it is wrong

[PlatinumGuy]

Rashi in Yoma 86a seems pretty clear that kiddush/chilul Hashem is about doing mitzvos or aveiros.
חילול השם - חוטא ומחטיא אחרים
באמור להם עם ה' אלה - את זו קרא הכתוב חילול השם כשאדם חשוב עובר עבירה ופורענות באה עליו

Although as I mentioned:
I appreciate the mareh mekomos you brought!

See also Rashi Yevamos 79a

ואל יתחלל שם שמים - שיהיו האומות אומרים אין אומה זו ראויין לידבק בה שהרי פשטו ידיהם בגרים ליטול מזונותיהם ולא עשו בהן נקמה:

[Eb228]

Interesting that after listening for 9 minutes (to something that could've been said in less than 1 minute) all he says (at around 7 minutes in) is that he doesn't have an answer about the Gemara that clearly says at times we don't follow the Torah because goyim would think negatively of us.

Bishev Val Taseh, not Kum Aseh (i.e. singing in pbulic/ shaking hands)

And the fact that a Gadol stayed shver and didn't answer like you concluded is also telling in his opinion

** Michah: Sounded a drop derogatory about a Gadol for stating something in 9 minutes that should have been said in 1.
He obviously thoguth it would be given over better / cleaer in 9.
Also, do you always talk Biktzur Nimratz, or on Devarim Bitailim you're no so makpid?

[PlatinumGuy]

Bishev Val Taseh, not Kum Aseh (i.e. singing in pbulic/ shaking hands)

That's a Chiluk you made up. The Gemara in Yevamos 79a talks about a case where they killed people B'Kum Aseh against the torah to satisfy Goyim's Perception

מוּטָב שֶׁתֵּעָקֵר אוֹת אַחַת מִן הַתּוֹרָה, וְאַל יִתְחַלֵּל שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם בְּפַרְהֶסְיָא.

[PlatinumGuy]

https://rebgershonribner.com/does-disdain-and-scorn-from-the-secular-public-constitute-a-chillul-hashem

Quotes some of the sources quoted above (or "misquoted" sources above)

FWIW, the Steipler directed R Aryeh Shechter to hand in Yoselle because he did consider it Chilul Hashem.

[PlatinumGuy]

(i.e. singing in pbulic/ shaking hands)

Btw I didn't follow the thread or comment on the specific case, I just noticed this post

A Kiddush Hashem does not mean making Goyim admire Yidden.

And it annoyed me as being fakhert from mefurash gemara and rishonim, and used to excuse all kinds of horrible behaviors

[aygart]

Yehousha's army didn't kill גִּבְעוֹן וְהַכְּפִירָה, וּבְאֵרוֹת וְקִרְיַת יְעָרִים despite the chiyuv to kill 7 Omos because it would cause a Chilul Hashem despite it being a Mitzva to kill them. לא תחיה כל נשמה.

The Rambam is a repetition of the same case

It is not simple at all that they were included in the requirement to kill them. Se Tosafos and how the Rambam says that Yehoshua first offered peace.

Chazal considered certain cases of theft a Chilul Hashem despite it being Mutar according to the Torah, only because Goyim would think it is wrong

Is someone doing something wrong by not stealing it?

Either way, if your point is that there can be a chilul hashem from what the goyim say, I don't think that is disputed. That is part of the rationale behind cherem drabbeinu Gershom too. That has nothing to do with saying someone should compromise to not look extreme to the compromised morals of the goyim.

That's a Chiluk you made up. The Gemara in Yevamos 79a talks about a case where they killed people B'Kum Aseh against the torah to satisfy Goyim's Perception

מוּטָב שֶׁתֵּעָקֵר אוֹת אַחַת מִן הַתּוֹרָה, וְאַל יִתְחַלֵּל שֵׁם שָׁמַיִם בְּפַרְהֶסְיָא.

That is incorrect. They were killed by the Givonim. Also, that case involved the judgement of the Melech with the aid of the Aron.

[imayid2]

What an unexpected turn this thread has taken… all from the possibility that Biden wasn’t briefed to not shake hands with some religious woman which he probably assumed was a mixup or she ain’t religious no more cause she just sang in front of a bunch of men…

[aygart]

Btw I didn't follow the thread or comment on the specific case, I just noticed this post

And it annoyed me as being fakhert from mefurash gemara and rishonim, and used to excuse all kinds of horrible behaviors

In context it makes much more sense. It absolutely CAN mean how it looks in the eyes of goyim in some cases but in the context of this thread it would not.

[aygart]

What an unexpected turn this thread has taken… all from the possibility the Biden wasn’t briefed to not shake hands with some religious woman which he probably assumed was a mixup or she ain’t religious no more cause she just sang in front of a bunch of men…

Of course he was briefed. There is no reason he would connect anything to singing.

[PlatinumGuy]

Either way, if your point is that there can be a chilul hashem from what the goyim say, I don't think that is disputed

Happy we agreed on that at least

A Kiddush Hashem does not mean making Goyim admire Yidden.

[aygart]

Happy we agreed on that at least

In context it makes much more sense. It absolutely CAN mean how it looks in the eyes of goyim in some cases but in the context of this thread it would not.