Author Topic: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?  (Read 81546 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #520 on: July 19, 2022, 05:43:40 PM »
It is not simple at all that they were included in the requirement to kill them. Se Tosafos and how the Rambam says that Yehoshua first offered peace.

Do you dispute that Toisfos says they were oiver the לאו of לא ישבו בארצך because of Chilul Hashem?


That is incorrect. They were killed by the Givonim.
They were given to be killed B'Kum Asseh וַֽיִּתְּנֵ֞ם בְּיַ֣ד הַגִּבְעֹנִ֗ים
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #521 on: July 19, 2022, 05:47:48 PM »
Do you dispute that Toisfos says they were oiver the לאו of לא ישבו בארצך because of Chilul Hashem?

Tosafos goes back and forth a lot and at most it depends on the different teirutzim in tosafos.

They were given to be killed B'Kum Asseh וַֽיִּתְּנֵ֞ם בְּיַ֣ד הַגִּבְעֹנִ֗ים
Still very different and
Also, that case involved the judgement of the Melech with the aid of the Aron.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #522 on: July 19, 2022, 06:07:36 PM »
Tosafos goes back and forth a lot and at most it depends on the different teirutzim in tosafos.


Look at Toisfos again. There is no Teirutz in Toisfos that doesn't hold they were oiver לא ישבו בארצך because of Chilul Hashem.

The Rashba and Ramban also cite Rash on Chumash as holding there was לא תחיה כל נשמה.


Still very different
Still concrete proof that this chiluk is wrong
Bishev Val Taseh, not Kum Aseh
« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 06:12:13 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #523 on: July 19, 2022, 06:39:31 PM »
Look at Toisfos again. There is no Teirutz in Toisfos that doesn't hold they were oiver לא ישבו בארצך because of Chilul Hashem.

The Rashba and Ramban also cite Rash on Chumash as holding there was לא תחיה כל נשמה.
Still concrete proof that this chiluk is wrong
The very end

Don't see how.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #524 on: July 19, 2022, 09:46:54 PM »
The very end


I learnt the end of Toisfos with two alternatives - either even when they’re coming to convert there is chiyuv to displace them out of cities where Jews lived or that at the point they weren’t even coming to convert so it’s back to point zero where there is full chiyuv to displace (or to kill if you go like Rashi against the first Teirutz).

I assume you learnt the first answer as saying they would’ve kick them out for a discretionary reason and not that it is a mitzva, which would seem to make sense (and the Pashtus of the Gemera and Rishonim re לא יישב בארצך) but doesn’t add up because then Toisfos wouldn’t have to say לגרשן מעריהם - they could’ve just as easily thrown them out of the whole country - there is no issur to do that to Geirem or anybody. In the question Toisfos asked there’s no Chiyuv and the answer is that it was a Rishus. There is no benefit to change it from ארץ to עיר. It appears that in the answer Toisfos still held it’s a Chiyuv, and what changed from the question is that even though there isn’t a Chiyuv to displace from the country, there is from the city. It would also make sense that a Ger in learning should be further away.

In any case you agree that the Gemara according to Rashi and one answer in Toisfos says what I claimed, and there is Rishon that argues with the principle, only what the metizus was in that specific scenario.

A better argument would be that the Chilul Hashem here was only because they mistakenly assumed there was a mitzva, and it wouldn’t be a Chilul Hashem if they just assumed it was morally wrong for other reasons, though as you know there are other proofs against that

כיון דאמרו מארץ רחוקה וכו' - וא"ת בלא"ה מי חיילא שבועה והא הוי נשבע לבטל את המצוה דכתיב (דברים כ׳:ט״ז) לא תחיה כל נשמה

ואע"ג דאמרי' בירושלמי דשביעית פרק ששי אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני שלש פרוזדוגמאות שלח יהושע לארץ ישראל עד שלא יכנסו לארץ מי שהוא רוצה לפנות יפנה להשלים ישלים לעשות מלחמה יעשה מלחמה גרגשי פינה והלך לאפריקא גבעונים השלימו שנא' (יהושע י׳:א׳) וכי השלימו יושבי גבעון את ישראל שלשים ואחד מלכים עשו מלחמה ונפלו היינו קודם שעברו את הירדן כדקאמר עד שלא יכנסו לארץ אבל משנכנסו משמע שלא היו יכולין להשלים ולכך הוצרכו להערים ולומר מארץ רחוקה באנו

וי"ל דעל כרחך באין רוצים להשלים כתיב לא תחיה כל נשמה כדמוכחי קראי (דברים כ׳:י׳-י״א) וקראת אליה לשלום וגו' ואם לא תשלים עמך וגו' רק מערי העמים וגו' לא תחיה כל נשמה

וא"ת מ"ט דרבי יהודה הא ודאי שבועה בטעות הואי ועוד לר' יהודה איך הניחום בארץ הכתיב (שמות כ״ג:ל״ג) לא ישבו בארצך וגו' והוה ליה נשבע לבטל את המצוה וע"כ משום חילול השם הוא כדאמרי רבנן ו

י"ל דקסבר ר' יהודה דאי איתא דיש לו הפרה לא היה בדבר חילול השם

וא"ת בלא חילול השם נמי אין יכולין להורגן כיון דבאין להתגייר כדאמרינן לעיל (גיטין דף מה.) לא ישבו בארצך פן יחטיאו אותך לי יכול בעובד כוכבים שקיבל עליו שלא לעבוד עבודת כוכבים כו' ואמרינן נמי בפרק אלו נאמרין (סוטה דף לה:) וכתבו להן מלמטה למען אשר לא ילמדו אתכם לעשות וגו' הא למדת שאם חוזרין בתשובה שמקבלין אותן וההוא קרא בז' אומות כתיב וי"ל דאי לאו חילול השם נהי שלא היו יכולין להרגן היו יכולין לגרשן מעריהם

 ועוד דבאותה שעה לא באו להתגייר כי אם אחרי כן:
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #525 on: July 19, 2022, 10:18:06 PM »
I learnt the end of Toisfos with two alternatives \
This is way too deep into a sugya I am not holding in. Either way it is quite different from the context of this conversation.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline WAM

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #526 on: July 20, 2022, 01:46:33 AM »
Could you imagine what would happen if Biden would be here for the above conversation? He'd be wondering why his name is in the title.

Offline dm123

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #527 on: July 20, 2022, 07:38:49 AM »
Mi k'amcha yisroel! What starts as a bunch of us having a laugh at politicians escalates into an involved discussion trying to figure out ratzon Hashem! This is a kiddush Hashem! (or should I not get started on what's a kiddush Hashem again? )

Offline neveryou

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #528 on: July 20, 2022, 03:50:46 PM »
Biden has cancer?

Offline TimT

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #529 on: July 20, 2022, 03:58:46 PM »
Biden has cancer?
Apparently. But good for him in not letting it interfere with his life.
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1549830673204232193

Offline neveryou

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #530 on: July 20, 2022, 05:01:30 PM »
Apparently. But good for him in not letting it interfere with his life.
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1549830673204232193
Did he get the cancer from the oil slicks his mom had to wipe off her car?

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #531 on: July 20, 2022, 05:24:23 PM »

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #532 on: July 20, 2022, 05:26:37 PM »
Could you imagine what would happen if Biden would be here for the above conversation? He'd be wondering why his name is in the title.
The Big One
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Offline dm123

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #533 on: July 20, 2022, 05:44:58 PM »
Biden has cancer?

He's had several localized, non-melanoma skin cancers (see #8). Although Dr. O'Conner seems to be saying it's because he's spent a good deal of time in the sun, and in the clip he seems to be blaming the oil? Anyone have a link to the full speech?

ETA: Found the full speech. Maybe I'll watch it soon.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 05:49:41 PM by dm123 »

Offline neveryou

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Offline biobook

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #535 on: July 20, 2022, 07:26:09 PM »
@biobook ?
It's a first!  @Kobe Bryant and biobook agree on a gaffe!

Biden's mind seems to have inappropriately conflated these facts into a single sentence:

Many of my friends have cancer now
I've had (skin) cancer in the past
We grew up near oil refineries and coal-burning plants which polluted the air
This kind of air pollution increases the risk of cancer

Offline biobook

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #536 on: July 20, 2022, 08:06:22 PM »
Additional non-trivial trivia:

Biden has long been concerned about the possible link between air pollution from burn pits and cancer in his son and other military veterans, so that might also have been on his mind.
https://www.cancer.org/healthy/cancer-causes/chemicals/burn-pits.html

Living near an oil refinery increases the rates of all cancers studied: Lung, not surprisingly, but also bladder, breast, colon, lymphoma, and prostate.  Skin cancers weren't studied.
https://academic.oup.com/jncics/article/4/6/pkaa088/5919078?login=false

While skin cancer is usually associated with exposure to sunlight, it can also be caused by exposure to PAH (polycylic aromatic hydrocarbons), which are produced during burning of coal, oil, gas, tobacco.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2022.924225/full

So it is possible that someone once told him that his skin cancer might have been related to his exposure to air pollution, but there's no definitive evidence for that.

Offline neveryou

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #537 on: July 20, 2022, 08:36:22 PM »




So it is possible that someone once told him that his skin cancer might have been related to his exposure to air pollution, but there's no definitive evidence for that.

https://twitter.com/GlennKesslerWP/status/1549834433561300995?t=SUKVZKQIKZmg672OdGKvig&s=19

Not according to his medical report.




Does the pollution also cause asthma like he said back in april?

Offline biobook

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #538 on: July 20, 2022, 09:38:51 PM »

So it is possible that someone once told him that his skin cancer might have been related to his exposure to air pollution, but there's no definitive evidence for that.

Not according to his medical report.
Correct.  His medical report was written by one person, his doctor.  Biden has spoken to many people over the course of his life, and regarding his specific interest in air pollution and cancer.  It is possible that someone else made the connection to him, although his personal physician did not, at least not in the medical report. 

Or it's possible that he just confused these issues, as I mentioned in previous post.


Quote
Does the pollution also cause asthma like he said back in april?
Yes, there's considerable evidence to support the claim that pollution causes the development of asthma in the first place, and also that it worsens the symptoms of someone who already has asthma.

That is, it increases the chances of developing asthma.  I didn't mean to imply that it is the only cause.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 09:49:08 PM by biobook »

Online yelped

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Re: What is your favorite Biden gaffe?
« Reply #539 on: July 20, 2022, 11:17:08 PM »
We can agree that pollution is not great, and we should work on reducing it as much as possible.