So How Was Your Shul This Week?

[yitzgar]

Our minyanim are technically open to men and women, though no women joined my group.

He was just correcting the quote

[EliJelly]

He was just correcting the quote

As Neil Armstrong himself did his entire life

[moko]

Our minyanim are technically open to men and women, though no women joined my group.

I know of minyanim that didn't start because they didn't have space for 20 people. They wouldn't start until they could have 10 men and 10 women

[shaulyaakov]

I know of minyanim that didn't start because they didn't have space for 20 people. They wouldn't start until they could have 10 men and 10 women

We're allowed 19 per group outside. It's up to the discretion of the organizing shuls whether to use all spaces for men, or to allow some women.

[aygart]

It is interesting to prevent men who have an obligation of tefila bitzibur from doing so in order to wait to accommodate women who don't

[ExGingi]

It is interesting to prevent men who have an obligation of tefila bitzibur from doing so in order to wait to accommodate women who don't

Is it a symptom or manifestation of a certain type of underlying attitude?

[Yonah]

It is interesting to prevent men who have an obligation of tefila bitzibur from doing so in order to wait to accommodate women who don't

I'll go out on a limb and say that no women in your shul say kaddish?

I'm a gabbai at my shul. We've had minyanim up to 10 people until yesterday, and today we're limiting it to 20ish outdoors (Westchester and I believe rockland now have entered phase 2 as of today).

 Do you know how difficult it is to decide who gets to come to minyan when you have EXACTLY a minyan? Obviously you want to make sure that the chiyuvim have an opportunity to say kaddish. Understand were a small community, and adding all of the factors - including the number of people who are immunocompromised and/or aren't ready to come back to minyan - even outdoors - leaves us with a small pool.

If I would get 17,18 people signed up, it would be easy to find a couple more and make a second minyan.

But if I would only get 12 or 13, who is the odd man out? Should I kick out the guy who is not a chiyuv, and has been to literally every minyan so that others can get a chance - I mean, he missed 2.5 months of minyan, so what is one more tefila? Should I kick out the teenager at the expense of the adults? Should I kick out the person from a neighboring town who is only here until his own shul re-opens?

At the end, B"H I am happy to report, that most times I was able to get two minyanim(three on shabbos morning ), and the few times I wasn't, I simply asked for volunteers. Some people were wonderful and willingly gave up their spots.

Back to the Issue of women and children for a moment - in my community Women do say kaddish, and do come to shul. (Before you go off on a tirade - save your breath. This is the psak of our Rov, and this is common across almost all of the shuls in Westchester). There are also many people (myself included) that have children that are old enough to come to minyan and daven. I would love to have my almost bar-mitzvah son come to daven with me and his older brothers. but neither of these should come at the expense of a minyan.

So what happens now when we fill up - I would imagine that if we get a full 20, I would probably start by excluding the kids, or better yet, recruiting more people and splitting one minyan into two.


One more note: While we could easily return to regular scheduled minyan and not need people to signup, we are still requiring signups to help make sure we a) get enough people b) Don't have too many and c) for Contact tracing

[avromie7]

I'll go out on a limb and say that no women in your shul say kaddish?

I'm a gabbai at my shul. We've had minyanim up to 10 people until yesterday, and today we're limiting it to 20ish outdoors (Westchester and I believe rockland now have entered phase 2 as of today).

 Do you know how difficult it is to decide who gets to come to minyan when you have EXACTLY a minyan? Obviously you want to make sure that the chiyuvim have an opportunity to say kaddish. Understand were a small community, and adding all of the factors - including the number of people who are immunocompromised and/or aren't ready to come back to minyan - even outdoors - leaves us with a small pool.

If I would get 17,18 people signed up, it would be easy to find a couple more and make a second minyan.

But if I would only get 12 or 13, who is the odd man out? Should I kick out the guy who is not a chiyuv, and has been to literally every minyan so that others can get a chance - I mean, he missed 2.5 months of minyan, so what is one more tefila? Should I kick out the teenager at the expense of the adults? Should I kick out the person from a neighboring town who is only here until his own shul re-opens?

At the end, B"H I am happy to report, that most times I was able to get two minyanim(three on shabbos morning ), and the few times I wasn't, I simply asked for volunteers. Some people were wonderful and willingly gave up their spots.

Back to the Issue of women and children for a moment - in my community Women do say kaddish, and do come to shul. (Before you go off on a tirade - save your breath. This is the psak of our Rov, and this is common across almost all of the shuls in Westchester). There are also many people (myself included) that have children that are old enough to come to minyan and daven. I would love to have my almost bar-mitzvah son come to daven with me and his older brothers. but neither of these should come at the expense of a minyan.

So what happens now when we fill up - I would imagine that if we get a full 20, I would probably start by excluding the kids, or better yet, recruiting more people and splitting one minyan into two.


One more note: While we could easily return to regular scheduled minyan and not need people to signup, we are still requiring signups to help make sure we a) get enough people b) Don't have too many and c) for Contact tracing

None of this explains why a shul wouldn't allow men to make a minyan because an equal number of women can't join.

In my neighborhood (lakewood) masks are unheard of, but they are still trying to have extra minyanim and telling people to try to social distance and they still don't allow women. In my parents neighborhood (also lakewood) the chassidish shul I davened at had no social distancing, but they didn't allow women even for yizkar so the men who want to attemp to social distance can use the ezras nashim.

The differences when it comes to social distancing as well as what is a priority are very interesting.

[aygart]

But if I would only get 12 or 13, who is the odd man out? Should I kick out the guy who is not a chiyuv, and has been to literally every minyan so that others can get a chance - I mean, he missed 2.5 months of minyan, so what is one more tefila? Should I kick out the teenager at the expense of the adults? Should I kick out the person from a neighboring town who is only here until his own shul re-opens?

The halacha is very clear that EVERYONE from within your community comes before someone from a different community.

[shaulyaakov]

I don't know how many (if any) women signed up as minyanim are spread in pods around town. I know thst the numbers are flexible such that any women who wanted could be accommodated.

In practice, the minyanim are at the same time and households are required to stick together, and kids under bar/bat mitzvah are not allowed, so due to childcare reasons, I can't imagine particularly high demand from women right now. People 65 and older are also banned, so it would be a small potential population.

I'm not sure what would have happened had we been capped at exactly 10 per group, and I don't think that was a factor in waiting.

[Sam Finkelstein]

https://forward.com/opinion/447527/letter-we-must-attend-shul-whether-or-not-women-are-present/

[Yonah]

The halacha is very clear that EVERYONE from within your community comes before someone from a different community.

How do you define community? For example, someone who came to minyan every day has an office a few blocks from our shul. He davens mincha with us every day. His home shul (one town over) so he came to daven with us every day until it did. He's not a member of our shul, but he's a "regular", and arguably, he probably davens in our shul more times per week on average than someone who only comes shabbos morning, but is a "member"

I also wonder how this works in places like brooklyn, passaic, monsey lakewood, etc. Two neighbors living in the same building go to different shuls, their kids to different yeshivas - so are they members of the same community or not?

Thankfully, I am glad that people were willing to opt out voluntarily, so I didn't have to pick.

[aygart]

How do you define community? For example, someone who came to minyan every day has an office a few blocks from our shul. He davens mincha with us every day. His home shul (one town over) so he came to daven with us every day until it did. He's not a member of our shul, but he's a "regular", and arguably, he probably davens in our shul more times per week on average than someone who only comes shabbos morning, but is a "member"

I also wonder how this works in places like brooklyn, passaic, monsey lakewood, etc. Two neighbors living in the same building go to different shuls, their kids to different yeshivas - so are they members of the same community or not?

Thankfully, I am glad that people were willing to opt out voluntarily, so I didn't have to pick.

Anyone who is not a member gets the first boot. THis would be very similar to rules for who comes first for the amud and who would not even get any kaddeishim in a community where only one person says kaddish. This is discussed extensively in the poskim including tshuvos Knesses Yechezkel which is the most comprehensive source.

[Yonah]

I don't know how many (if any) women signed up as minyanim are spread in pods around town. I know thst the numbers are flexible such that any women who wanted could be accommodated.

In practice, the minyanim are at the same time and households are required to stick together, and kids under bar/bat mitzvah are not allowed, so due to childcare reasons, I can't imagine particularly high demand from women right now. People 65 and older are also banned, so it would be a small potential population.

I'm not sure what would have happened had we been capped at exactly 10 per group, and I don't think that was a factor in waiting.

We did things slightly differently, as we didn't want the sifrei torah to leave shul grounds. The problem with exactly 10 is what happens when one person cancels or shows up late, leaving you with 9?

None of this explains why a shul wouldn't allow men to make a minyan because an equal number of women can't join.

In my neighborhood (lakewood) masks are unheard of, but they are still trying to have extra minyanim and telling people to try to social distance and they still don't allow women. In my parents neighborhood (also lakewood) the chassidish shul I davened at had no social distancing, but they didn't allow women even for yizkar so the men who want to attemp to social distance can use the ezras nashim.

The differences when it comes to social distancing as well as what is a priority are very interesting.

I didn't hear anyone argue that they needed an identical amount of men and women at minyan, however I did hear of one shul that, among other concerns about being limited to 10 people, wanted to find ways that women could be included if possible. Part of me thinks that OU/RCA guidance that shuls wait two weeks after being legally allowed to re-open went with the assumption that if two weeks went by and things were going well, restrictions would be eased by the time minyan started up.


Incidentally, our shul has also modified leining - only the gabbai/bal koreh touch the torah and must use gloves. For an aliyah, the bal koreh shows the oleh the place remotely, and then steps six feet away while the oleh approaches to make his bracha (without touching the torah) the oleh backs away, and the bal koreh returns.

[Yonah]

Anyone who is not a member gets the first boot. THis would be very similar to rules for who comes first for the amud and who would not even get any kaddeishim in a community where only one person says kaddish. This is discussed extensively in the poskim including tshuvos Knesses Yechezkel which is the most comprehensive source.

... and to be fair, this was what we said we'd do when we started, and I would have done it had I not found volunteers.


And for the record... I really hated minyanim where only one person said kaddish. While I was an avel, I once went to such a minyan, not knowing that was the minhag, and someone stopped me in middle of kaddish  to tell me to shut up. I walked out and davened somewhere else.

[shaulyaakov]

We did things slightly differently, as we didn't want the sifrei torah to leave shul grounds. The problem with exactly 10 is what happens when one person cancels or shows up late, leaving you with 9?

I didn't hear anyone argue that they needed an identical amount of men and women at minyan, however I did hear of one shul that, among other concerns about being limited to 10 people, wanted to find ways that women could be included if possible. Part of me thinks that OU/RCA guidance that shuls wait two weeks after being legally allowed to re-open went with the assumption that if two weeks went by and things were going well, restrictions would be eased by the time minyan started up.


Incidentally, our shul has also modified leining - only the gabbai/bal koreh touch the torah and must use gloves. For an aliyah, the bal koreh shows the oleh the place remotely, and then steps six feet away while the oleh approaches to make his bracha (without touching the torah) the oleh backs away, and the bal koreh returns.

We're not laining yet (Mincha Maariv only and we'll be skipping laining initially).

It happens, I daven at a shul-sanctioned apartment minyan anyway, so we have a Torah for when we're allowed to use it. Getting it outside to the minyan site with a table will be hard (it's exceptionally heavy) so not sure if we'll lain before we're allowed to move back indoors.

[aygart]

We did things slightly differently, as we didn't want the sifrei torah to leave shul grounds. The problem with exactly 10 is what happens when one person cancels or shows up late, leaving you with 9?

I didn't hear anyone argue that they needed an identical amount of men and women at minyan, however I did hear of one shul that, among other concerns about being limited to 10 people, wanted to find ways that women could be included if possible. Part of me thinks that OU/RCA guidance that shuls wait two weeks after being legally allowed to re-open went with the assumption that if two weeks went by and things were going well, restrictions would be eased by the time minyan started up.


Incidentally, our shul has also modified leining - only the gabbai/bal koreh touch the torah and must use gloves. For an aliyah, the bal koreh shows the oleh the place remotely, and then steps six feet away while the oleh approaches to make his bracha (without touching the torah) the oleh backs away, and the bal koreh returns.

We really should move this to the other shul thread at this point before we all get suspended. https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=116819.msg2260661#msg2260661

I don't think anyone was arguing against having a place for women if possible unless they would argue that anytime. People are taking exception to this

I know of minyanim that didn't start because they didn't have space for 20 people. They wouldn't start until they could have 10 men and 10 women

https://forward.com/opinion/447527/letter-we-must-attend-shul-whether-or-not-women-are-present/

[yzj]

An older gentleman came in to shul with a mask and generated quite a stir. The gabaim rushed to set him up in a spot in the ezras noshim. Haven’t seen a mask in shul in a while. Over 200 people jammed in shoulder to shoulder by the tables.

Went to GG Lakewood for the first time in a week or so and it looks like a few customers, mostly women have masks, but the majority of the men, even the older ones do not.

[ari3]

I was in a local shul this morning and I noticed davening took a few minutes longer, people were there more on time, didn't see anyone look at their phone during davening, almost no talking

Hopefully these improvements will last

[Naftuli19]

Shuls were closed in Scottsdale