Lakewood Shul has 2 types of minyanim

[Traveler718]

Sorry if this is technically off-topic, but somehow this became the "mesira" thread even if it's officially titled otherwise.

If a school is completely disregarding public health rules, and I don't mean little things that nobody's complying with, but a blatant flouting that can actually endanger many families such as by not quarantining classes with confirmed positive symptomatic cases or even bothering to notify the parents, and even going so far as to then mix the exposed class with other (healthy) classes, is there any halachic justification to "innocently" report the cases to the government's Covid hotline that's used for contact tracing purposes, then leaving it to them to connect the dots and deal with the school as they see fit? Or are there any other halachically permissible remedies that may be pursued, as I assume a DOH complaint would be borderline mesirah?

[shaulyaakov]

Sorry if this is technically off-topic, but somehow this became the "mesira" thread even if it's officially titled otherwise.

If a school is completely disregarding public health rules, and I don't mean little things that nobody's complying with, but a blatant flouting that can actually endanger many families such as by not quarantining classes with confirmed positive symptomatic cases or even bothering to notify the parents, and even going so far as to then mix the exposed class with other (healthy) classes, is there any halachic justification to "innocently" report the cases to the government's Covid hotline that's used for contact tracing purposes, then leaving it to them to connect the dots and deal with the school as they see fit? Or are there any other halachically permissible remedies that may be pursued, as I assume a DOH complaint would be borderline mesirah?

Why is your stating assumption that this would be a prohibited case of mesirah?

[PlatinumGuy]

Sorry if this is technically off-topic, but somehow this became the "mesira" thread even if it's officially titled otherwise.

If a school is completely disregarding public health rules, and I don't mean little things that nobody's complying with, but a blatant flouting that can actually endanger many families such as by not quarantining classes with confirmed positive symptomatic cases or even bothering to notify the parents, and even going so far as to then mix the exposed class with other (healthy) classes, is there any halachic justification to "innocently" report the cases to the government's Covid hotline that's used for contact tracing purposes, then leaving it to them to connect the dots and deal with the school as they see fit? Or are there any other halachically permissible remedies that may be pursued, as I assume a DOH complaint would be borderline mesirah?

In Israel the gedolim have paskened to masser people who aren't following government covid laws.

[Traveler718]

In the US I'm not aware of any similar psak from gedolim. I'm not aware of a single non-MO school in Brooklyn/Lakewood/Monsey that is following every government reopening requirement to the letter, but as I said, there's the things that nobody's doing (for better or worse), and then there's an entirely new level of active endangerment for which there's no justification that should be stopped if there's a valid halachic basis to have the authorities do so. Hence my question about the halachic issues involved, as well as what specific agency may be contacted (if any).

[Traveler718]

Why is your stating assumption that this would be a prohibited case of mesirah?

Informing the government about illegal actions being done by Jews can lead to repercussions that are at least in the potential realm of mesirah, which is weighty enough that it shouldn't be taken lightly (even if said individual is taking the weighty topic of public healthy lightly).

[yelped]

Did you try talking to the hanhala?

[ari3]

In Israel the gedolim have paskened to masser people who aren't following government covid laws.

Who gave the psak and in reference to what situation? It is very dangerous to extrapolate from potentially totally different circumstances. Additionally I strongly suspect that is a minority view.

Sorry if this is technically off-topic, but somehow this became the "mesira" thread even if it's officially titled otherwise.

If a school is completely disregarding public health rules, and I don't mean little things that nobody's complying with, but a blatant flouting that can actually endanger many families such as by not quarantining classes with confirmed positive symptomatic cases or even bothering to notify the parents, and even going so far as to then mix the exposed class with other (healthy) classes, is there any halachic justification to "innocently" report the cases to the government's Covid hotline that's used for contact tracing purposes, then leaving it to them to connect the dots and deal with the school as they see fit? Or are there any other halachically permissible remedies that may be pursued, as I assume a DOH complaint would be borderline mesirah?

such a question should be adressed to your LOR not on an internet forum

[Baruch]

Mesira is a very chamurdike shaalah, you wouldn't ask a shaalah about a DNR on a forum, some things have to be asked to a qualified Rav.

[EliJelly]

In Israel the gedolim have paskened to masser people who aren't following government covid laws.

Come on, you know that's simply not true

[incendia]

Who gave the psak and in reference to what situation? It is very dangerous to extrapolate from potentially totally different circumstances. Additionally I strongly suspect that is a minority view.such a question should be adressed to your LOR not on an internet forum

What if its your LOR that you want to be Mesira on?

[EliJelly]

What if its your LOR that you want to be Mesira on?

Mamish gevaldig, once I'm done with the sugya of rodef I'll be taking on to this chakira, so many svaros come to mind, maybe in the same split second you feel the need to maaser him, in that split second the chalos of him being your LOR is getting mufka.

[srepw]

Regarding the actual discussion here, there is a reason for this directive. Rabbonim would like to be more stringent, but the sad reality is that people will do anything to fight it, and pushing that line will lead to a breakdown of the kehila. Because of this, Rabbonim have and plan on taking this sort of line similar to the idea of two minyanim as a way of keeping their kehila together (Whether the Rav should be willing to say everyone should mask and leave his kehila fragmented without a guide because of the pushback is for people bigger and better than me to decide.)
So many of us are so quick to blame leadership, but the klal is forcing the rabbonim into untenable positions and that makes for these sort of problems...

[Traveler718]

Did you try talking to the hanhala?

Yes. Suffice it to say that it was an utter waste of time, other than to confirm that there is neither transparency nor honesty with not only government regulators, but also parents. Hence my post...

And for those pointing out how chamur it is, I don't plan to act based on the responses of some online posters and apologize for not making that clearer. I was simply trying to get a sense of people's view of this issue to help me figure out my options.

[PlatinumGuy]

Who gave the psak and in reference to what situation? It is very dangerous to extrapolate from potentially totally different circumstances. Additionally

How's this for a minority view?

השו"ת שהוגש לרב קנייבסקי:
שאלה: אדם שלפי הוראות הרופאים חייב להיכנס לבידוד כדי שלא ידביק אחרים אם חלה, והוא עצמו חש בטוב ואינו חש שום כאב או חולי, האם יכול לצאת מביתו, או שמצווה עליו להקשיב לרופאים למרות שמרגיש טוב? תשובה: "לשמוע לרופאים"


שאלה: אדם שטוען שהוא בוטח בה' שלא יחלה, ועל כן מזלזל בהנחיות הרפואה (בשמירת מרחק זה מזה, וביציאה מהבית שלא לצורך דחוף וכדו') האם אפשר להגדירו כ"רודף" כי עלול להביא אנשים אחרים לידי סכנה? תשובה: "כרודף".


שאלה: ואם ח"ו זלזל בהוראות וגרם למישהו למות, האם נחשב מזיד או שוגג? תשובה: "קרוב למזיד".
שאלה: אם יודע על אדם שחייב להיות בבידוד שיוצא החוצה ומסכן אנשים, מותר לגעור בו בקול ובחריפות, אף שאולי יתבזה מכך? תשובה: "מותר".


שאלה: האם מותר למסור את שמו של אדם שמזלזל בהוראות הרופאים ומסכן את האחרים, לרשויות החוק? וכן האם מותר למסור מידע על בתי כנסת ומוסדות שלא נשמעים להוראות הרפואה, גם אם יביא לקנס כספי גבוה או אפילו מאסר? תשובה: "מותר"

https://www.hidabroot.org/article/1136733


My father personally asked R Elyashiv if he should report to the police somebody who was stealing something from him. R Elyashiv told him he doesn't understand what the question is

Come on, you know that's simply not true

Hmm. I guess you're right, he said medical directives, not government regulations. I was referring to medically sanctioned governmental regulations.

Mesira is a very chamurdike shaalah

It's actually not

[aygart]

How's this for a minority view?

https://www.hidabroot.org/article/1136733


My father personally asked R Elyashiv if he should report to the police somebody who was stealing something from him. R Elyashiv told him he doesn't understand what the question is

Hmm. I guess you're right, he said medical directives, not government regulations. I was referring to medically sanctioned governmental regulations.
It's actually not

For those who weren't sure about calling the guy a rodef. @avromie7 @S209

[avromie7]

For those who weren't sure about calling the guy a rodef. @avromie7 @S209

Noted, but 1)He said k'rodef (that's bad too). 2) I would bring proof from an article from March. The situation and understanding was very different than it is now.

[yzj]

How's this for a minority view?

https://www.hidabroot.org/article/1136733


My father personally asked R Elyashiv if he should report to the police somebody who was stealing something from him. R Elyashiv told him he doesn't understand what the question is

Hmm. I guess you're right, he said medical directives, not government regulations. I was referring to medically sanctioned governmental regulations.
It's actually not

I’m glad you feel that way. Rabbi Kahan from Lakewood said in a shiur that Rav Moshe when faced with a mesirah shayla would often say safek olam habah lihachmir.

[shaulyaakov]

I’m glad you feel that way. Rabbi Kahan from Lakewood said in a shiur that Rav Moshe when faced with a mesirah shayla would often say safek olam habah lihachmir.

And Safek nefashos?

[yzj]

And Safek nefashos?

When we have these kind of weighty shaalos- safek nefashos and olam habah rather than say
 

Mesira is a very chamurdike shaalah

we go to DDF to get an opinion.

[shaulyaakov]

When we have these kind of weighty shaalos- safek nefashos and olam habah rather than say
  we go to DDF to get an opinion.

My angle here isn't to tell people what to do. It's to say there are 2 sides and it's not open and shut - we're not talking about tax evasion here. Obviously, one should ask a Rav who's qualified in the Halacha as well as the metziyus.