Author Topic: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages  (Read 2965 times)

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 4000
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2021, 12:23:50 PM »
So you are just being as (insert your own word) as the person who wants to pay 50 for a TV.
Excellent example.  ::)
It was the point being made, not the actual figures.

I remember how the discussion use to be it was the UE benefits that was causing the shortage. Now we know that was just political BS from the right.

You have a massive amount of people choosing to retire early, why? You have many that no longer while accept poverty level wages, smart!

I love the lip service about supply and demand except when it works against you.

Now let's use your example. Pay 200/hr and there will be no labor shortage.  :P

You resorted to hyperbole to make a point, because you can’t make an argument without it. Wages on the low ends has gone up drastically but it hasn’t helped.

And for higher end - as someone that is involved in hiring, I have yet to lose someone based on money. I ask what they are seeking and have given them at or above their high range. One candidate upped their ask by 33% and I matched. Still no. I find that a lot decide they want to work remotely for a job that needs to be on site  or just don’t want to work if the job is not 1000000% exactly what they’re looking for. It’s an employees market right now and they’re free to exercise their rights.

I ask the recruiters for honest feedback and they say there’s nothing we’re doing wrong. There’s just a dearth of candidates, sometimes there’s no one within the region. You have to get creative, like searching other regions and paying for relo or hire a junior (when experience is needed) and hire a consultant to train them.

We need to bring more professional talent to the US for areas that are way undeserved. And we need to import labor for blue collar jobs that no one wants. Americans aren’t in survival mode where they will be desperate enough to leave family for weeks at a time to be truckers. It’s not about money, they’d rather earn less and live a family life. Many south of the border are desperate to survive and glad to take such opportunities. Heck they already come into the country (illegally) leaving their family for years at a time for much lower earnings.
Visibly Jewish

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15792
  • Total likes: 7320
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2021, 12:30:23 PM »
You resorted to hyperbole to make a point, because you can’t make an argument without it. Wages on the low ends has gone up drastically but it hasn’t helped.
I quoted from an article to make a general point. Wages going from 10 to 15 is drastic but still are poverty wages. Refresh my memory. What is the current minimum wage many are still offering/paying? Heck 20 years ago I wouldn't except 20/hr and we are nowhere near that now.
We need to bring more professional talent to the US for areas that are way undeserved.
This is a different issue.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline moko

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 4568
  • Total likes: 1485
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: BOS
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2021, 12:53:57 PM »
ages going from 10 to 15 is drastic but still are poverty wages.
+100
Heck 20 years ago I wouldn't except 20/hr and we are nowhere near that now.
This is a different issue.
just because someone won't accept a specific wage doesn't make it poverty wages.
$25/ hr may not be comfortable but it's not poverty wages. I'd say $20 is already on the way up from poverty. $20/hr *50hrs weekly *50 weeks annually is $50000 annually. Granted 50 hrs weekly is long but not excessively and it still allows 2 weeks vacation. Obviously it's locale dependent

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15792
  • Total likes: 7320
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2021, 12:59:36 PM »
$25/ hr may not be comfortable but it's not poverty wages. I'd say $20 is already on the way up from poverty. $20/hr *50hrs weekly *50 weeks annually is $50000 annually. Granted 50 hrs weekly is long but not excessively and it still allows 2 weeks vacation. Obviously it's locale dependent
For discussion would 40/hr work week be fair? You should never consider overtime that is not guaranteed in your calculations.

IMHO 20/hr would be good for unskilled labor.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 4000
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2021, 01:15:48 PM »
I quoted from an article to make a general point. Wages going from 10 to 15 is drastic but still are poverty wages. Refresh my memory. What is the current minimum wage many are still offering/paying? Heck 20 years ago I wouldn't except 20/hr and we are nowhere near that now.

For a good barometer - Amazon unskilled labor starts at $18/hr plus signing bonus and benefits. An average OTR trucker earns more than $30/hr and there's a huge shortage. Not a highly skilled job. What you were earning 20 years ago is not relevant to the discussion unless you were unskilled labor doing typical low wage work.
Visibly Jewish

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 4000
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2021, 01:25:00 PM »
For discussion would 40/hr work week be fair? You should never consider overtime that is not guaranteed in your calculations.

IMHO 20/hr would be good for unskilled labor.

Agree on 40/hr work week. And IMHO it's hard to put a number on what unskilled labor should get paid, are you basing $20/hr on value provided, on cost of living, or something else? Because obviously it varies by the location of the job, the productive value of the work, and the employee's life - kids vs no kids, and etc.

Even $20 is not much if you take into account inflation growth.

How did you get to $20?
Visibly Jewish

Offline moko

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 4568
  • Total likes: 1485
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: BOS
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2021, 01:56:47 PM »
For discussion would 40/hr work week be fair? You should never consider overtime that is not guaranteed in your calculations.

IMHO 20/hr would be good for unskilled labor.
fair enough.
$20/he would be the bottom end of creeping up from poverty wages.

For arguments sake, can we agree that unskilled ≠ untrained.
Only because I recently had a conversation with someone who argued that once employees are trained you shouldn't consider them unskilled.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15792
  • Total likes: 7320
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2021, 02:04:38 PM »
How did you get to $20?
Just picked what I thought was fair for a family of 4 to make ends meat. Open for discussion.
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15792
  • Total likes: 7320
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2021, 02:06:35 PM »
This brings up another discussion about unskilled. How about an unskilled doing a labor intense job? What rate for them?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline moko

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 4568
  • Total likes: 1485
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: BOS
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2021, 02:08:15 PM »
This brings up another discussion about unskilled. How about an unskilled doing a labor intense job? What rate for them?
My personal opinion is once we're out of the poverty range, the market should determine that. I understand why others would feel differently. Especially with so many abusive employers

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 15792
  • Total likes: 7320
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2021, 02:09:11 PM »
An average OTR trucker earns more than $30/hr and there's a huge shortage. Not a highly skilled job.
Not highly skilled like say a doctor but skilled, nevertheless. IIRC it is more than 30/hr but you don't get paid for sleeping.  ;)
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline moko

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 4568
  • Total likes: 1485
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: BOS
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2021, 02:11:49 PM »
but you don't get paid for sleeping.  ;)
so e of the better companies have per diem which is something.
Regardless, with all the frustrating legislation and road conditions, long haul trucking is borderline
a labor intense job? What rate for them?

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17407
  • Total likes: 14342
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2021, 08:43:11 AM »
Good to see how once the two sides got their ridiculous hyperbolic exaggerations out of their systems we were able to get back to a normal reasonable discussion.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 08:49:54 AM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 4000
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Granting Visas to Immigrants to address Labor Shortages
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2021, 10:41:53 PM »
This brings up another discussion about unskilled. How about an unskilled doing a labor intense job? What rate for them?

Don't think it should be regulated, the work intensity weeds out many and usually find these positions getting paid well. We shouldn't raise cost of living because not enough people desire a job that earns a living wage. I think importing labor for these positions should be encouraged when there are systemic shortages and will keep costs from skyrocketing. Would obviously need regulated wages to ensure employers aren't hiring them simply because they are cheaper.


For arguments sake, can we agree that unskilled ≠ untrained.
Only because I recently had a conversation with someone who argued that once employees are trained you shouldn't consider them unskilled.

It really depends on the position and the opportunity to grow. A cashier whether trained or not, salary doesn't really make a difference. But a trained "unskilled" warehouse employee working at a warehouse for years can learn a lot and grow into a well-paid managerial position.
Visibly Jewish