Author Topic: Violent protests erupt across the country  (Read 182380 times)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1800 on: April 15, 2021, 12:57:31 AM »
Regardless our views make no practical difference. Whether or not he deserves some blame is just a mental exercise to determine whether it's a death or a tragedy. The lessons learned should be the same- improve the policing protocols to prevent cases like this.
All the protests, riots and looting is based upon what determination is being made.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1801 on: April 15, 2021, 01:01:58 AM »
All the protests, riots and looting is based upon what determination is being made.

I beg to differ. Rioting and looting is because some people enjoy rioting and looting. And from what I’ve seen, people are protesting because they aren’t happy with the police protocols, and that is something CV and I would agree upon.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1802 on: April 15, 2021, 01:08:10 AM »
I beg to differ. Rioting and looting is because some people enjoy rioting and looting.
MS media and liberal influencers determines that it was a cruel death that happened only because of his skin color, and you get a ripe environment for people to have an excuse to riot and loot. 

Offline aygart

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1803 on: April 15, 2021, 09:07:51 AM »
No difference for CV, but FYI, the Torah absolutely ascribes blame for a woman if her behavior results in her being raped by a bad person.
Source? I am not so sure that it is relevant to this conversation at all.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1804 on: April 15, 2021, 09:15:03 AM »
I am not really following the reasoning behind what some of you are saying. When someone becomes a police officer we expect them to deal with potentially dangerous situations without killing people. That is a part of the job, especially in high-crime areas. Whether the victim here did something stupid or not does not absolve the killer. I am not familiar enough with the legalities of Unintentional Manslaughter (legalities weren't part of the discussion here anyhow), but on the face of it this sounds like it fits the bill. Will all of those aspects mentioned be brought up in court as mitigating factors? If her attorney is worth anything then yes, but that doesn't change that she killed someone with no adequate justification.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1805 on: April 15, 2021, 09:21:23 AM »
There's a big difference between blaming a victim (someone trips down the stairs) and blaming someone that contributes to their own bad outcome (someone walking on the edge of a cliff). The fact that you can't comprehend the nuance is because it's not politically correct to hold people accountable. But from my Torah learnings I was taught that taking personal responsibility of your life is extremely important, if I run recklessly in front of a car - I can't blame the driver, I can't blame God, I can blame myself and myself only.
You sure it is me missing the nuance? The officer is one committing the illegal act. You don't put blame on the victim of the illegal act being committed. This is common sense, not political correctness.

I fully understand why you all disagree with the "women" examples I gave. From what was posted here it seems the Torah teaches the women bares (some) blame for being raped. That is victim blaming not political correctness. Welcome to PC Friday!!!  :)

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Offline Lurker

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1806 on: April 15, 2021, 09:38:58 AM »
I am not really following the reasoning behind what some of you are saying. When someone becomes a police officer we expect them to deal with potentially dangerous situations without killing people. That is a part of the job, especially in high-crime areas. Whether the victim here did something stupid or not does not absolve the killer. I am not familiar enough with the legalities of Unintentional Manslaughter (legalities weren't part of the discussion here anyhow), but on the face of it this sounds like it fits the bill. Will all of those aspects mentioned be brought up in court as mitigating factors? If her attorney is worth anything then yes, but that doesn't change that she killed someone with no adequate justification.

I don't think anyone is trying to absolve her in any way. The 2 things that seem to be in contention are whether race is (or should be) a factor here, and whether a victim deserves some of the blame when their actions contribute to their victimhood.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1807 on: April 15, 2021, 09:42:56 AM »
@CountValentine Do you believe all victims are innocent?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1808 on: April 15, 2021, 09:44:08 AM »
I don't think anyone is trying to absolve her in any way. The 2 things that seem to be in contention are whether race is (or should be) a factor here, and whether a victim deserves some of the blame when their actions contribute to their victimhood.
Is it fair to say your religion teaches you that in this situation the victim deserves some of the blame for his own death?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1809 on: April 15, 2021, 09:47:05 AM »
@CountValentine Do you believe all victims are innocent?
Now there is a loaded question. If I felt you wanted an honest discussion and not a "got you" discussion I might answer it.  :)
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1810 on: April 15, 2021, 09:49:43 AM »
Is it fair to say your religion teaches you that in this situation the victim deserves some of the blame for his own death?

Our religion gives specific rules for conduct. It teaches that a person bears a share of the responsibility for the consequences of not following those rules.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1811 on: April 15, 2021, 09:50:39 AM »
Now there is a loaded question. If I felt you wanted an honest discussion and not a "got you" discussion I might answer it.  :)

Personally, I don't think it's loaded at all. Pretty straightforward,  yes-or-no kinda deal.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1812 on: April 15, 2021, 09:52:58 AM »
Our religion gives specific rules for conduct. It teaches that a person bears a share of the responsibility for the consequences of not following those rules.
In this specific example does he bare some responsibility in causing his own death according to your religion?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1813 on: April 15, 2021, 09:54:48 AM »
Personally, I don't think it's loaded at all. Pretty straightforward,  yes-or-no kinda deal.
If you want to give a specific example I will try and answer it.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1814 on: April 15, 2021, 09:59:15 AM »
In this specific example does he bare some responsibility in causing his own death.

IMO, his actions contributed to the outcome, so he bears some responsibility. In no way does that absolve the cop of her responsibility for the outcome.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1815 on: April 15, 2021, 10:02:20 AM »
If you want to give a specific example I will try and answer it.

An unarmed intruder gets killed.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1816 on: April 15, 2021, 10:04:59 AM »
IMO, his actions contributed to the outcome, so he bears some responsibility.
This is all I was asking.
I assume this is based on your religious teachings which I have no problem with. My view is based on the laws of our land. Can you see why are views differ?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1817 on: April 15, 2021, 10:06:44 AM »
An unarmed intruder gets killed.
He/she is not an innocent victim. If the homeowner feels their life is in danger IMHO they have every right to shoot to kill.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1818 on: April 15, 2021, 10:08:09 AM »
This is all I was asking.
I assume this is based on your religious teachings which I have no problem with. My view is based on the laws of our land. Can you see why are views differ?

I don't think my opinion is based on religious teachings at all. My opinion is based on my belief that a person is responsible for their actions, and the resulting consequences, even if the consequences are not proportionate to those actions. How much responsibility is a sliding scale, dependent on the details of the case.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1819 on: April 15, 2021, 10:09:19 AM »
He/she is not an innocent victim. If the homeowner feels their life is in danger IMHO they have every right to shoot to kill.

So your answer to my question is simply, "No, not all victims are innocent."
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