Author Topic: Violent protests erupt across the country  (Read 182242 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1820 on: April 15, 2021, 10:11:58 AM »
So your answer to my question is simply, "No, not all victims are innocent."
You are playing with words is just another form of "got you".  :)
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1821 on: April 15, 2021, 10:13:48 AM »
You are playing with words is just another form of "got you".  :)

I'm not playing with words, and there's no "got you" here. I think we agree that a victim's innocence is very much dependent on their actions that led to their victimhood. Am I wrong?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1822 on: April 15, 2021, 10:14:13 AM »
I don't think my opinion is based on religious teachings at all. My opinion is based on my belief that a person is responsible for their actions, and the resulting consequences, even if the consequences are not proportionate to those actions. How much responsibility is a sliding scale, dependent on the details of the case.
How did you form this belief? Off your religious teachings, the teachings of our constitution or my society teachings in general?
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1823 on: April 15, 2021, 10:15:19 AM »
Does it need to be "one person is innocent, one person is guilty"?
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1824 on: April 15, 2021, 10:15:28 AM »
How did you form this belief? Off your religious teachings, the teachings of our constitution or my society teachings in general?

You say "my society" as if I don't live in the same society. I don't think the concepts of personal responsibility or accountability are religious in nature.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1825 on: April 15, 2021, 10:16:02 AM »
I'm not playing with words, and there's no "got you" here. I think we agree that a victim's innocence is very much dependent on their actions that led to their victimhood. Am I wrong?
The perpetrator in your example was not a victim. He/she was the one committing the crime. The homeowner was the victim.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1826 on: April 15, 2021, 10:18:22 AM »
The perpetrator in your example was not a victim. He/she was the one committing the crime. The homeowner was the victim.

Someone can be committing a crime and still be a victim.

Quote
Definition of victim
1: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent
: such as
a(1): one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions

And to your point, someone who is attempting to flee from the police is committing a crime.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1827 on: April 15, 2021, 10:20:12 AM »
I don't think the concepts of personal responsibility or accountability are religious in nature.
All are beliefs are based on something. If not religion then what are you basing it on?
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1828 on: April 15, 2021, 10:21:57 AM »
All are beliefs are based on something. If not religion then what are you basing it on?

It's been a common concept in all societies for as long as history has been recorded.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1829 on: April 15, 2021, 10:23:50 AM »
I am not really following the reasoning behind what some of you are saying. When someone becomes a police officer we expect them to deal with potentially dangerous situations without killing people. That is a part of the job, especially in high-crime areas. Whether the victim here did something stupid or not does not absolve the killer. I am not familiar enough with the legalities of Unintentional Manslaughter (legalities weren't part of the discussion here anyhow), but on the face of it this sounds like it fits the bill. Will all of those aspects mentioned be brought up in court as mitigating factors? If her attorney is worth anything then yes, but that doesn't change that she killed someone with no adequate justification.

We as a society gave cops and soldiers guns, training, and a list of rules to follow. Human made rules can never be perfect yet we still decided to hand them guns anyways, accepting the collateral damage to keep our society safe as a whole. We still should strive to learn from our mistakes and perfect the rules to our best capabilities.

If the court determines that the PO was not negligent and followed the rules, then she is not to blame for his death. The system is to blame, and the system is us. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

If this PO was someone close to you, you would tell them to not live with guilt or feel guilty, and you’d fully believe it.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1830 on: April 15, 2021, 10:24:47 AM »
Someone can be committing a crime and still be a victim.
IMHO not in the example you gave. That person was not a victim.
And to your point, someone who is attempting to flee from the police is committing a crime.
Agree 100% and should be punished for that crime. It that situation the perpetrator is not the victim. When we continue on and the officer commits a crime now we have a victim. 
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1831 on: April 15, 2021, 10:26:52 AM »
It's been a common concept in all societies for as long as history has been recorded.
Then we come full circle to the way a women dresses bares some responsibility for her being attacked/raped? Do you believe that?
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1832 on: April 15, 2021, 10:28:59 AM »
IMHO not in the example you gave. That person was not a victim.

I didn't make up the definition of "victim." It's in the dictionary. That person was a victim.

Agree 100% and should be punished for that crime. It that situation the perpetrator is not the victim. When we continue on and the officer commits a crime now we have a victim.

So a disproportionate response absolves the victim of responsibility for their actions that led to that response?
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1833 on: April 15, 2021, 10:29:28 AM »
If the court determines that the PO was not negligent and followed the rules, then she is not to blame for his death.
I would hope we all agree with this.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1834 on: April 15, 2021, 10:30:51 AM »
You sure it is me missing the nuance? The officer is one committing the illegal act. You don't put blame on the victim of the illegal act being committed. This is common sense, not political correctness.

I fully understand why you all disagree with the "women" examples I gave. From what was posted here it seems the Torah teaches the women bares (some) blame for being raped. That is victim blaming not political correctness. Welcome to PC Friday!!!  :)

In your world view, only one party can be to blame for anything. I don’t agree with that. I don’t know the Torah view about the woman examples you gave, but if for example a woman knowingly and willingly walks into a dark alleyway in high crime area at night and gets raped, the Torah will morally hold her responsible (no punishment), while still punishing and blaming the perp completely.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1835 on: April 15, 2021, 10:31:06 AM »
I didn't make up the definition of "victim." It's in the dictionary. That person was a victim.
Well it is Friday.
victim: a living creature killed as a religious sacrifice.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1836 on: April 15, 2021, 10:32:11 AM »
Then we come full circle to the way a women dresses bares some responsibility for her being attacked/raped? Do you believe that?
How about a woman wearing a $10k necklace openly at 3 AM in a crime infested area and a robber is tearing it off her and flees, Is she bearing any responsibility? Context and situation is everything.

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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1837 on: April 15, 2021, 10:33:17 AM »
Then we come full circle to the way a women dresses bares some responsibility for her being attacked/raped? Do you believe that?

No, because I don't believe women get raped because of how they are dressed.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1838 on: April 15, 2021, 10:34:53 AM »
Well it is Friday.
victim: a living creature killed as a religious sacrifice.

It's actually still Thursday, and my point stands.
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Re: Violent protests erupt across the country
« Reply #1839 on: April 15, 2021, 10:35:24 AM »
In your world view, only one party can be to blame for anything.
It my world view it is dangerous to blame the victim. Teach your kids what you feel they should do but don't blame them when they are the victim.
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