The current state of COVID-19 in Israel

[aygart]

Soo if I understand correctly, you are saying that the vaccine is not yet proven to be safe and effective in the real world as stated on Pashkevilin posted around Jerusalem.
Therefore, we would follow Medical Science, which is not entirely certain about the vaccine and not listen to Political Science which makes those not participating in the trial run feel left out when they are not issued a gimmicky, legally flimsy Green Passport?

Did you read the agreement at all and what data they are dealing with?

+1.
Also why is the date redacted??

This REAL-WORLD EPIDEMIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE COLLABORATION AGREEMENT
dated as of January 6, 2021

[PlatinumGuy]

https://twitter.com/segal_eran/status/1350890238441365511?s=21

[S209]

data to determine real-world effectiveness

Soo if I understand correctly, you are saying that the vaccine is not yet proven to be safe and effective in the real world as stated on Pashkevilin posted around Jerusalem.

?!?

Methinks you put words in his mouth

[ExGingi]

?!?

Methinks you put words in his mouth

Wow. What the pilpul that's going around here triggered by my questions, yet doesn't begin to respond to them.

[AsherO]

You might have just as well answered "today is Sunday". Or "people should be nice to each other". Those are all fine, dandy, and correct, but have nothing to do with the questions I posed. (and I didn't really ask a complex question like "when is next Wednesday?")

Give me your own answer to your question instead of giving mine.

You’re playing the fame CV Kept playing in the politics topics before there was a dedicated board:
- Ask a (provocative?) question
- Get answers
- Heckle anyone who answers
- Never reveal your own position

[AsherO]

Aren't you a lawyer? You should be able to read the agreement better than this. All of the data is at population level and nothing about effectiveness in individuals.

2. THE PROJECT
2.1 Objective of the Project.
To measure and analyze epidemiological data arising from the Product rollout, to detetmine
whether herd immunity is achieved after reaching a cett ain percentage of vaccination coverage in Israel.

Exhibit A
MoH and PFIZER will collaborate on analyses of the data points listed in this Exhibit A. MoH will
provide PFIZER with the data specified in Exhibit B.
Endpoints (beginning and ending dates to be mutually agreed by the Parties)
• Confirmed COVID-19 cases/week
• Confirmed COVID-19 hospitalizations/week
• Confirmed COVID-19 severe/ critical cases /week
• Confirmed COVID-19 ventilator use/week
• Confirmed COVID-19 deaths/week
• Symptomatic cases/week
• Weekly numbers of vaccinees, as total and by age and other demographic subgroups.
• Number of cases per week by age groups, and other demographic factors.
• Additional subgroup analyses and vaccine effectiveness analyses, as agreed by the Parties

IANAL and I have no idea how you’re responding to anything in my post that you quoted.

[aygart]

IANAL and I have no idea how you’re responding to anything in my post that you quoted.

Okay, guess I was mistaken about that. None of this shows anything at all about how effective the vaccine is for those who take it or anything else regarding these individuals. This is only about how vaccination rates affect the overall population and what vaccination rate is needed to reach herd immunity. The only information being tracked is from the overall population.

[AsherO]

Okay, guess I was mistaken about that. None of this shows anything at all about how effective the vaccine is for those who take it or anything else regarding these individuals. This is only about how vaccination rates affect the overall population and what vaccination rate is needed to reach herd immunity. The only information being tracked is from the overall population.

Didn’t I say real world effectiveness, I didn’t say anything about effectiveness in individual.

What, to your understanding, is the difference between “herd immunity is achieved” and “real world effectiveness”.

P.s. I was enlightened about real world effectiveness by that video recently posted by CH doctors interviewing an expert. In the little bit I watched he made the distinction between efficacy and effectiveness.

[aygart]

Didn’t I say real world effectiveness, I didn’t say anything about effectiveness in individual.

P.s. I was enlightened about real world effectiveness by that video recently posted by CH doctors interviewing an expert. In the little bit I watched he made the distinction between efficacy and effectiveness.

Both efficacy and effectiveness are measures for individuals who were vaccinated FWIU (youtube is filtered so no CH video for me) with effectiveness being measured in how well it helps vaccinated individuals when there are other factors not accounted for in the trials. Each of those affects the rate needed for herd immunity but what is needed for herd immunity is not a measure of effectiveness.


https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/what-difference-between-efficacy-and-effectiveness

For a measure of what is needed for herd immunity the response to you by @Mikes@Micro based on how both of us understood what you wrote makes no sense at all. There also would be nothing controversial about tracking such data that would lead to your disclaimer of being only the meesenger.

[AsherO]

How much needed to achieve herd immunity is not a test of effectiveness.

The document states:

“The project is intended to generate an analyze epidemiological and population-level effectiveness data”

Good enough for me.

[AsherO]

There also would be nothing controversial about tracking such data that would lead to your disclaimer of being only the meesenger.

That particular disclaimer was to ExGingi only, I was replying to him.

[Kobe Bryant]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-expected-to-extend-lockdown-as-israel-surpasses-4000-dead/

[aygart]

The document states:

“The project is intended to generate an analyze epidemiological and population-level effectiveness data”

Good enough for me.

good enough for what?

[AsherO]

good enough for what?

To support what I wrote. If you think I misunderstood then you’re entitled to your opinion.

[aygart]

To support what I wrote. If you think I misunderstood then you’re entitled to your opinion.

My issue is not whether it can be supported but what I, and it seems others, will understand from what you wrote that it is a test of whether the vaccine works or not. To the extent that is understood it is not the case.

[AsherO]

My issue is not whether it can be supported but what I, and it seems others, will understand from what you wrote that it is a test of whether the vaccine works or not. To the extent that is understood it is not the case.

We know the vaccine’s efficacy from PIII clinical trials. We don’t have data on real world effectiveness on an entire population, and that’s data they want to gather and analyze.

We know it works, but only to an extent. We don’t know for sure how well it works on scale, because we don’t have data on it. If someone is biased and wants to interpret that as “it may not work” that's their problem, not mine.

[ExGingi]

Give me your own answer to your question instead of giving mine.

You’re playing the fame CV Kept playing in the politics topics before there was a dedicated board:
- Ask a (provocative?) question
- Get answers
- Heckle anyone who answers
- Never reveal your own position

I am not playing any game. There's a situation going on, and I am simply wondering how different people view it and what would be the right way in different people's opinion of handling it. There is no right or wrong answer here, just opinions.

The issue with what you wrote is that it simply does not address my questions.

So responding directly to your allegations about what I was doing, could you please point out:
- Any answers to the questions I posed.
- To the extent that there were any answers, where I heckled anyone who provided an answer
- As to my position, or rather opinion, it is listed below (and might have been deduced from the questions I posed):

As to my position on this, while I haven't yet fully formulated my opinion, as I'm not sure I am aware of all the facts, but my instinct would be to back Huldai and seek to extend that position towards shuls and yeshivos. Though I would be cautious and not shoot from the hip, but rather seek other opinions, in a similar manner to what was advocated by Dr. Naor Bar-Zeev in the video which I have now fully watched after posting it on DDF, questioning my own thoughts and assumptions.

[B.D.Da'ehu]

As to my position on this, while I haven't yet fully formulated my opinion, as I'm not sure I am aware of all the facts, but my instinct would be to back Huldai and seek to extend that position towards shuls and yeshivos. Though I would be cautious and not shoot from the hip, but rather seek other opinions, in a similar manner to what was advocated by Dr. Naor Bar-Zeev in the video which I have now fully watched after posting it on DDF, questioning my own thoughts and assumptions.

Shuls and yeshivos are open now (at least in Jerusalem, I assume in all chareidi centers in the country as well).


Moot point lol.

[ExGingi]

Shuls and yeshivos are open now (at least in Jerusalem, I assume in all chareidi centers in the country as well).


Moot point lol.

Legally? With no capacity restrictions?

[Ergel]

Legally? With no capacity restrictions?

Illegally, with no capacity restrictions