Topic Wiki

List of Racists
1.
2.
3.
« Last edited by Mordyk on June 11, 2020, 01:00:39 PM »

Author Topic: Is everyone really a racist?  (Read 72640 times)

Offline YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5687
  • Total likes: 13850
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2020, 06:44:18 PM »
Apparently you think it did, but that "fix" doesn't moot the question.

Assuming you would walk across the street in response to one demographic, but not the other is "treating someone differently."

Would you?
treating them differently in a way that impacts them. Thought that was evident from my response...

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25500
  • Total likes: 723
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2020, 06:45:50 PM »
You had no problem making a sociological observation about the disproportionate amount of blacks committing crimes, but why didn’t you make the sociological observation about the other factors? Is it because one fits with your worldview and one doesn’t? I’m asking, not assuming.

I had "no problem" quoting a simple fact, because it's a simple fact and because it illustrated--I hope--a simple point: I refuse to believe facts are racist.  Perhaps you disagree -- you're entitled to that opinion.  I further have "no problem" acknowledging the fact that certain life choices and certain obstacles are strongly linked to criminal behavior and incarceration.

You are free to engage in the why underlying my first fact; I prefer not to do so except to say that I don't think the second fact absolves criminals for their behavior--regardless of race. 
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25500
  • Total likes: 723
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2020, 06:48:07 PM »
treating them differently in a way that impacts them. Thought that was evident from my response...

It was not. So you agree that you would react differently.  Does that make you racist?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7549
  • Total likes: 3976
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2020, 06:52:56 PM »
I had "no problem" quoting a simple fact, because it's a simple fact and because it illustrated--I hope--a simple point: I refuse to believe facts are racist.  Perhaps you disagree -- you're entitled to that opinion.  I further have "no problem" acknowledging the fact that certain life choices and certain obstacles are strongly linked to criminal behavior and incarceration.

You are free to engage in the why underlying my first fact; I prefer not to do so except to say that I don't think the second fact absolves criminals for their behavior--regardless of race.
You observed a statistic- AA commit crimes. You chose a dividing line for your observations- AA or not. You could have chosen the line of poor, fatherless, or uneducated and had the same result. You needn’t discuss why that is so, just observe it as fact.

You’re right that facts can’t be racist, but systems can be racist and systems have a way of producing “facts”.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25500
  • Total likes: 723
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2020, 06:53:47 PM »
But you are holding them to a higher standard by expecting crime rates to *not* mirror these detrimental factors. What is your goal? If it’s to take revenge on people, fair enough. If it’s to lower crime rates and maximize tolerance in society, the system needs to change. We have come a long way from the way things used to be (slavery) and have a long way to go to get to what we should be striving for (true equality).

So let me get this straight.  Adults make adult decisions, but instead of blaming them for their adult decisions, you want to change the system, i.e., absolve them, because their adult decisions were a product of society's purported lack of equality in 1860 2020?

How is "do not kill other people" not color blind?  Are there harsher punishments for Asian/Indian/African people who commit crimes of which I'm not aware?
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25500
  • Total likes: 723
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2020, 06:54:54 PM »
You observed a statistic- AA commit crimes. You chose a dividing line for your observations- AA or not. You could have chosen the line of poor, fatherless, or uneducated and had the same result. You needn’t discuss why that is so, just observe it as fact.

You’re right that facts can’t be racist, but systems can be racist and systems have a way of producing “facts”.

Did you miss the sign on the door before you walked in?

Here's what it did say: Is everyone really a racist?

Here's what it did NOT say: "Is everyone really doomed to commit crimes if they drop out of school/have no father/have children out of wedlock?"

The "rules" of the sandbox were pretty clear.  Don't like them, create another sandbox.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline m65

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 725
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: israel
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2020, 06:59:56 PM »
You could have chosen the line of poor, fatherless, or uneducated and had the same result.
if i see a white man with torn jeans and broken teeth in a dark alleyway i get nervous as well.
most people dont have signs on their forehead stating if they are fatherless or uneducated.
AA are pretty easy to spot.
@AJK didnt order the research as to AA crime rates, just happened upon them on google.
after hearing this info, he gets worried when he sees one in a dark alley, does that make him bad?

Offline fineguy

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 30
  • Total likes: 11
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: everywhere
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2020, 07:27:39 PM »
There are two elements to racism. Often both ideas are mixed together, but they are distinct.
a) the belief that a specific group of people is superior.
b) treating people poorly or acting violently based on race.

The Torah works with definition A, not B. We are the Am Hanivchar.
Shevet Levi was chosen over other tribes. The descendants of Aaron were chosen from the tribe of Levi. If you recall Korach didn't like it.
Previously it was the Bechorim who held the superior status.
Noach placed Shem and Yefes on a pedestal.
The line of David earned an unalterable status above other family lines.
Call its a caste system. Call it whatever you like. G-d calls the shots.

Torah does not advocate that we treat others poorly based on race. While specific races are singled out for punishment, those are punitive in nature. Amalek must be avenged. Amon and Moav may not enter the Jewish faith because of specific wrongs they committed.
Poor treatment or violence based purely on racial considerations is not condoned by the Torah.

Thus, it is important to nail down what one means when using the term.


Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 461
  • Total likes: 284
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2020, 07:27:44 PM »
No. But it is racist to assume that every Black is more likely to be a criminal based on those facts. Because each person is an individual, not a statistic.
Differentiating between the individual and the group is not really going to work. What if I were to proudly announced that my national chain of retail outlets will avoid all areas that have predominately young African-American males because of the high crime prevalence. I’m not judging any individual, just making a sound business decision based  on statistics. Yet many will call that racist. Even individually tailored business decisions are often based on statistics. An insurance company stratifies risk based on demographics and other characteristics. So do credit scoring models like FICO. They would absolutely use African-American young male demographic as part of their decision making process because it absolutely makes sense from a business standpoint if it wasn’t legally and culturally untenable for them to do so. Me walking down a dark alley seeing young African-American males and basing my decision on statistics is very logically sound. The view of the individual is indeed colored by statistics.

 To take it a step further, what if I offered you a prospective group of employees and told you they came from school A with the average IQ required for admittance is 100. I also have another group of potential employees available from school B where the average IQ of the student body is 80. It would be completely understandable from a strictly business standpoint to select employees from School A rather than School B. Well, what if I told you that group A is actually white males who studies show have an average IQ of around 100 and Group B are black males whom studies show have an average IQ of around 80. Now it’s racist.

I’m not advocating the correctness of doing the above. I think it’s unfair and I think that society needs to remedy disparities among the different racial groups so that everyone has a fair and equal chance. But to decide what is racist or not as what is based on logical or illogical behavior completely misses the mark.  It is actually logical in many cases to exhibit racist behavior it is simply wrong and immoral.

Offline m65

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 1884
  • Total likes: 725
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: israel
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2020, 07:50:09 PM »
There are two elements to racism. Often both ideas are mixed together, but they are distinct.
a) the belief that a specific group of people is superior.

thats not racism (not that i know what racism means)
if i believe that japanese are the smartest bestest nation in the world (which most nations believe about themselves) am i racist?
if i believe that brisk students are the biggest lamdanim am i racist?
if u had to bet on a boxing match between a guy from Bed Stuyvesant and a bochur from bnei brak w/o any other knowledge about the contestants, which side would u bet on? does that make u a racist? or an anti semite?
fact is that for whatever genetic reason there are smarter groups, stronger groups, etc.
there is nothing wrong with believing that

If you recall Korach didn't like it.



he was fine with the concept, he just thought it was meant for him


Offline fineguy

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 30
  • Total likes: 11
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: everywhere
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2020, 08:05:55 PM »
thats not racism (not that i know what racism means)
if i believe that japanese are the smartest bestest nation in the world (which most nations believe about themselves) am i racist?
if i believe that brisk students are the biggest lamdanim am i racist?
if u had to bet on a boxing match between a guy from Bed Stuyvesant and a bochur from bnei brak w/o any other knowledge about the contestants, which side would u bet on? does that make u a racist? or an anti semite?
fact is that for whatever genetic reason there are smarter groups, stronger groups, etc.
there is nothing wrong with believing that
Exactly. Normal people understand that the issue of racism is restricted to treating someone poorly based on race.
But the libs seem to believe that even considering one to be of a superior race is racist.
I googled "racism vs discrimination". The top result views Racism as one's view that their race is superior. Discrimination is acting on said belief.
They write:
Racism is the belief that personality, behavior and morals can be traced back to race, and the belief that one race is superior to another. Thinking that Asian people are better at math is racist. You are attributing qualities to another person based solely on their race. Thinking that black people are more violent or more likely to steal is racist.

Amazing to me how crazy things get. If an ethnic group is better at math, so be it.

I would go a step further and say that many of these demonstrators don't even have the ideas of racism fleshed out. They just know that black lives matter.


Offline etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 12921
  • Total likes: 3383
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline Let3

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 1106
  • Total likes: 34
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2020, 08:09:34 PM »
What do you mean by blaming the perpetrators committing violent crimes? The psychological makeup of a criminal is very much dependent on the way they were brought up and their life experiences and interactions with the world. People of color also happen to be much more likely to grow up with no father, in poverty, with less education, and with greater distrust of the “establishment”. All of those demographics are also significantly over represented in violent crimes. Adjust for those greatly disproportionate numbers and you’ll find that they’re not disproportionately more likely to commit crime.

Now, back to the question: Why are they more likely to grow up with no father, less education, in poverty, and with greater distrust of establishment? Shouldn’t we be working on those as a way to counter these effects? Hence affirmative action, these protests, etc.
There are also many ways of “working” on these issues.

Forcing institutions to hire more AA over others , or offering the AAs free stuff (education or whatever) and not others -  May borderline Racism the other way around...
but that’s what a lot of them are pushing for.

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 16691
  • Total likes: 7496
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2020, 09:14:45 PM »
What figures is everyone using to say one group commits more crimes, convictions?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 16691
  • Total likes: 7496
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2020, 09:16:22 PM »
Do you not understand the difference between you telling your daughter who to marry, and your daughter deciding who to marry?
Yes. Now you going to answer my question? @zh cohen
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 461
  • Total likes: 284
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2020, 09:24:25 PM »
What figures is everyone using to say one group commits more crimes, convictions?
The figures are not even remotely close. African Americans blow whites out of the water when it comes to most crimes. I’m not aware of any source that even claims otherwise.
Just to pick the first source that comes up in a search here is Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of White victims killed by Whites and 93% of African American victims killed by African Americans.[63][64][65]

In 2013, African Americans accounted for 52.2% of all murder arrests, with Whites 45.3% and Asians/indigenous Americans 2.5%. Of the above, 21.7% were Hispanic.[66][67]

Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims and arrestees in the US while Whites (including Hispanics) account for the majority of non-gun homicide victims and arrestees. Of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007 and 2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% indigenous American. Non-gun homicides represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were also over-represented in such homicides, although only by about 2.5 times their share of the general population.[68] Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007 to 2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% indigenous American.[69]

Assault   Edit
The CDC keeps data on non-fatal injury emergency department visits and the race of victims.[70] While non-Hispanic white victims account for approximately half of total non-fatal assault injuries, most of which did not involve any weapon, black and Hispanic victims account for the vast majority of non-fatal firearm injuries. There was a total of 17.3 million emergency department visits or hospitalizations for non-fatal assaults in the United States in the 10-year period between 2007–2016. For non-fatal assaults with recorded race, 6.5 million victims were white non-Hispanic, 4.3 million black, 2.3 million Hispanic and 0.4 million other (non-Hispanic) and for 3.8 million, the race was not recorded. There were a total of 603,000 emergency department visits in the US for non-fatal firearm assaults in the 10-year period between 2007–2016. For non-fatal firearm assaults with recorded race, 77,000 victims were white non-Hispanic, 261,000 were black and 94,000 were Hispanic, 8,500 were other non-Hispanic and for 162,000 the race was not recorded. Despite gun injuries only accounting for about 3.5% of serious assault injuries between 2007–2016 they accounted for nearly 70% of overall homicides.[71]

While African Americans are highly overrepresented in murders and gun assaults, the disparity in arrests is small for the most common form of assault not involving any weapon or serious injury (non-aggravated assault). Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites are arrested for non-aggravated assault in a similar ratio to their share of the US population. Of the 9,468 murder arrests in the US in 2017, 53.5% were black and 20.8% Hispanic. Of the 822,671 arrests for non-aggravated assault, 31.4% were black and 18.4% Hispanic.[72]

Youth crime   Edit
The "National Youth Gang Survey Analysis" (2011) state that of gang members, 46% are Hispanic/Latino, 35% are black, 11.5% are white, and 7% are other races/ethnicities.[73]

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the year 2008 black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws and drunkenness. Racial disparities in arrest have consistently been far less among older population groups.[74]

Robbery   Edit
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than vice versa.[75][76]

Victim surveys   Edit
In 1978, Michael Hindelang compared data from the National Crime Victimization Survey (then known as the National Crime Survey, or NCS) to data from the Uniform Crime Reports, both from 1974. He found that NCS data generally agreed with UCR data in regards to the percent of perpetrators of rape, robbery, and assault who were black.[77] For instance, Hindelang's analysis found that both the NCS and UCR estimated that 62% of robbery offenders were black in the United States in 1974.[78]:327 A 2004 National Crime Victimization Survey report which analyzed carjacking over 10 years found that carjacking victims identified 56% of offenders as black, 21% as white, and 16% as indigenous American or Asian

Offline CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 16691
  • Total likes: 7496
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2020, 09:27:35 PM »
The figures are not even remotely close.
It was a simple question. Convictions is what everyone is using?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17712
  • Total likes: 7967
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68932
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17712
  • Total likes: 7967
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Is everyone really a racist?
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2020, 09:38:07 PM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan