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Build wealth and give!

Author Topic: Dave Ramsey Plan  (Read 31408 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2020, 01:35:07 PM »
It is short-sighted to ignore a plan which would work because of some hypocrisy of its creator to make his plan profitable. The same goes for whether the minutia is the exact best financial advice. That is like saying that nobody should use any navigation system since they don't get you there with the best route. 99% of the time the route will be a lot better than getting lost.

The risk involved is a big factor in deciding what works. That you are making this illogical straw-man argument is in itself a great illustration of the folly of your position.
Nice deflection when your own logic is used to show how wrong it is.
Your responses of "who cares" "it doesn't matter" speaks volumes.
No reasonable person would judge a plan based on only if it worked or not but that has been your response.
I am ignoring the plan because it is flawed. I am also ignoring the plan because it is put out by a conman.   
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline avromie7

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #141 on: July 24, 2020, 01:41:25 PM »
Correct. Though once you reach a certain age, it's up to 7k.
You probably meant to say "stay on the programs" rather than "get off of programs". Because that's a huge differentiator that most financial planning and advice doesn't address.

In NY qualifying for Medicaid or Essential Plan is huge. If a person also qualifies for childcare vouchers, that enormous. Section 8 (or other subsidized housing) I don't even know how much (nor do I know if a 401k might disqualify one or significantly reduce the subsidy).

All of that being said, accumulating too large of a balance in a pre-tax retirement account can create other problems down the road, as moving money out of the plan is a taxable event (taxed at ordinary income rates, and a penalty if dones too early).
The goal is to be able to live without programs without ever being in the sweet (sour) spot where every dollar in income results in more than $1 lost in programs.

For someone making the perfect amount of money to maximize programs they still pay 7.65% FICA and lose:
EITC 21.06%
Food Stamps 30%
Section 8 33%
This is already over 90% of the additional income, I may have missed some and this doesn't include other smaller programs like LI-HEAP. By the time you get done you're literally coming home with less money, the goal of putting it into a 401k or IRA is to launch you to the point where you are ineligible for at least some of the programs so you no longer lose more than you make.

The ramifications down the road will be significantly smaller even for someone who never gets off programs because they receive less from programs by the time they reach 70 1/2. For example EITC is tiny without eligible children.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #142 on: July 24, 2020, 01:43:18 PM »
Nice deflection when your own logic is used to show how wrong it is.
Your responses of "who cares" "it doesn't matter" speaks volumes.
No reasonable person would judge a plan based on only if it worked or not but that has been your response.
I am ignoring the plan because it is flawed. I am also ignoring the plan because it is put out by a conman.   

Who said only?

"Don't let perfection be the enemy of good"

If it works it is good. If you can direct someone to something better then great! There is no benefit in ignoring something that works because it is flawed. Just perfect it!
That you will ignore based on ad hominem fits you.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #143 on: July 24, 2020, 01:45:33 PM »
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #144 on: July 24, 2020, 01:51:56 PM »
You did!!!  ::)
Only if you consider weighing the risks to be a deflection and not an integral part of figuring out whether or not it works. Being debt free in jail is not considered working.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #145 on: July 24, 2020, 01:54:32 PM »
Only if you consider weighing the risks to be a deflection and not an integral part of figuring out whether or not it works. Being debt free in jail is not considered working.
Blah blah blah!!!
Stop the non-sense. You asked who said it and I showed it was you. I know it is Friday but I don't need your pretzels.
Claim you misspoke or something and move on.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #146 on: July 24, 2020, 01:56:54 PM »
Blah blah blah!!!
Stop the non-sense. You asked who said it and I showed it was you. I know it is Friday but I don't need your pretzels.
Claim you misspoke or something and move on.
If you want to call it mispoke then so be it. mY intent is very clear while you have done little but harp on nonsense.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2020, 01:59:22 PM »
The goal is to be able to live without programs without ever being in the sweet (sour) spot where every dollar in income results in more than $1 lost in programs.

For someone making the perfect amount of money to maximize programs they still pay 7.65% FICA and lose:
EITC 21.06%
Food Stamps 30%
Section 8 33%
This is already over 90% of the additional income, I may have missed some and this doesn't include other smaller programs like LI-HEAP. By the time you get done you're literally coming home with less money, the goal of putting it into a 401k or IRA is to launch you to the point where you are ineligible for at least some of the programs so you no longer lose more than you make.

The ramifications down the road will be significantly smaller even for someone who never gets off programs because they receive less from programs by the time they reach 70 1/2. For example EITC is tiny without eligible children.
You left out losing the Cadilac of heath insurance. the child care benefit mentioned by @ExGingi may be location based.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2020, 02:01:39 PM »
If you want to call it mispoke then so be it. mY intent is very clear while you have done little but harp on nonsense.
Your intend was to blow off my posts by "who cares" and "This is really all that matters".
Your intent was to show that people only care about and all that matters is if the plan works.
I pointed out how illogical that is and your response was you never said that. You said exactly that!!!
The problem is the posts are there for everyone to see.
Not lets move on.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #149 on: July 24, 2020, 02:04:39 PM »
I still haven't received an answer from our resident experts to the WL vs Term + S&P mutual funds question.
My uneducated research shows that if I invest 10k annually at an overall 8% rate of return annually (very conservative- over ANY given 40 yr period) will be almost 3mil after 40 yrs.
If my 30 term cost $1500 monthly (total $540,000) and my total 40 yr principal is $480,000, then I've invested a total of approx 1mil for a return of approx 3mil + 1mil life insurance peace of mind.
How much would that cost me in WL?

While I've found this recent blog post that might address some of your questions, there is an important issue that jumps at me within the set of assumptions you've presented.

I don't know what the starting age you are assuming for this, but you do mention a 30 year term (not mentioning how much, but I'm assuming you're talking about $1MM, even though you seem to be assuming $3MM capital at retirement, so why would you insure for any less than that, especially if a premature death would mean that the capital is needed for a longer period of time) while you keep on talking about ANY given 40 year investment period. So what if year 31 of that given investment period suffers a significant market crash (yes, if the investment isn't touched for the next 10 years there might be a spectacular recovery, or it might take longer like the Nasdaq after the dot.com crash or the Nikkei 225 post 1989, a high which it has never recovered)?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 02:44:03 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #150 on: July 24, 2020, 02:13:24 PM »
You left out losing the Cadilac of heath insurance. the child care benefit mentioned by @ExGingi may be location based.

The bottom line is that the welfare state is designed as a honey trap. They make it very difficult to get out of it as incremental increases to self-reliance turn out to be highly detrimental to what's provided by the government. Just look at the difference at the cost of healthcare available in the individual marketplace in NY between someone that's earning up to 200% of FPL and someone just above. While just above might have subsidies, all of the sudden deductibles and co-pays are up, and even with the subsidies the monthly premium is significantly higher. Or look at Child Health Plus. up to 400% of FPL one can get it somewhat subsidized at a maximum family cost of $180/month ($60 per child, with a family max). Go over 400% and it's $280 per child per month.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #151 on: July 24, 2020, 02:14:12 PM »
Your intend was to blow off my posts by "who cares" and "This is really all that matters".
Your intent was to show that people only care about and all that matters is if the plan works.
I pointed out how illogical that is and your response was you never said that. You said exactly that!!!
The problem is the posts are there for everyone to see.
Not lets move on.
Yes our posts are there for everyone to see and I am therefore not going to continue arguing agains your illogical arguments. The logic behind what I wrote is very clear to anyone willing to see. You want to go on the hamster wheel di it yourself I will not join you.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #152 on: July 24, 2020, 02:18:09 PM »
While I've found this recent blog post that might address some of your questions, there is an important issue that jumps at me at the set of assumptions you've presented.

I don't know what the starting age you are assuming for this, but you do mention a 30 year term (not mentioning how much, but I'm assuming you're talking about $1MM, even though you seem to be assuming $3MM capital at retirement, so why would you insure for any less than that, especially if a premature death would mean that the capital is needed for a longer period of time) while you keep on talking about ANY given 40 year investment period. So what if year 31 of that given investment period suffers a significant market crash (yes, if the investment isn't touched for the next 10 years there might be a spectacular recovery, or it might take longer like the Nasdaq after the dot.com crash or the Nikkei 225 post 1989, a high which it has never recovered)?

If nothing else, take out of this that a diversified stock portfolio does not mean that your assets are diversified.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #153 on: July 24, 2020, 02:18:43 PM »
Yes our posts are there for everyone to see and I am therefore not going to continue arguing agains your illogical arguments. The logic behind what I wrote is very clear to anyone willing to see. You want to go on the hamster wheel di it yourself I will not join you.
No need for the hamster wheel since you now are chaining your tune that other things do matter besides if the plan works.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #154 on: July 24, 2020, 02:20:33 PM »
No need for the hamster wheel since you now are chaining your tune that other things do matter besides if the plan works.
The change is nowhere but in your own mind.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #155 on: July 24, 2020, 02:33:09 PM »
The change is nowhere but in your own mind.
So you don't want to keep going? I guess you misspoke again.  ::)

Talking about if the plan works or helped people.
This is really all that matters.
Who cares.
All that really matters is whether or not it works and not any of these other side shows.
What makes it a good plan is if it works.
...but you never said any of that!!!  :)
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Kobe Bryant

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #156 on: July 24, 2020, 02:38:16 PM »
Considering that this is a service he offers, that would make sense. I have given similar advice to someone and told him that if having an advisor to speak to is what will get you to actually fund the investment then it is a price well worth the cost.
False.

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #157 on: July 24, 2020, 02:48:47 PM »
..but you never said any of that!!!  :)
I absolutley said all of that and stand by it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #158 on: July 24, 2020, 02:49:18 PM »
False.

I'm sorry, profits by endorsing advisors.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Dave Ramsey Plan
« Reply #159 on: July 24, 2020, 02:56:36 PM »
I absolutley said all of that and stand by it.
Hopefully you understand what "all" means.
Then what is the the argument? You are claiming about the plan "All that really matters is whether or not it works and not any of these other side shows."
My point that you disagree with is that if the plan works is not all that matters. I can show a MS plan that works for some here but it is not a good plan for them.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch