Dave Ramsey Plan

[CountValentine]

The reason you don't get DR, is because you're a responsible and smart person who doesn't play stupid and doesn't borrow money unless they are certain they can pay back.
You are an exception to the rule, which is why 40-60% of American I have revolving credit card debt, and 70% have nothing in savings put away.
All those people need hand holding, motivation, and should not have debt at all, like child #4. DR helps them, because you're not their dad.

40-60% and 70% figures sound right. IMHO they all don't need hand holding.
Child #4 (second oldest) hopefully will be financially responsible soon. It isn't the DR plan but the CV plan. 

[thaber]

40-60% and 70% figures sound right. IMHO they all don't need hand holding.
Child #4 (second oldest) hopefully will be financially responsible soon. It isn't the DR plan but the CV plan. 

All don't or don't all?

[CountValentine]

All don't or don't all?

I would say many of them do not need hand holding.

[ExGingi]

I would say many of them do not need hand holding.

So what do they need?

[CountValentine]

So what do they need?

Many of them, better paying jobs. 
Probably basic financial skills, learning a budget and the like.

[ExGingi]

Many of them, better paying jobs. 
Probably basic financial skills, learning a budget and the like.

Jobs or entrepreneurship?

IDK about basic financial skills. Where do you draw the line between basic and beyond? Sometimes I feel like crying for people who didn't seek guidance or help at an earlier stage, and come to me with a specific issue, when there's so many simple things that could have been done over the years to put them in a better position now. Even without changing anything about their jobs and income.

What justification is there for a person who has been in business for himself previously, and then on a company payroll for over a decade, to have $0 in retirement savings.

[zh cohen]

Many of them, better paying jobs. 
Probably basic financial skills, learning a budget and the like.

Do you believe that people who are overweight just need more information about healthy food?

[CountValentine]

Do you believe that people who are overweight just need more information about healthy food?

A small amount might.

[SMS331]

The 1st 5-6 minutes of his interview with Ben Shapiro he explains that while mathmatically it makes no sense, he found that it wasn't an issue with the math, it was a problem with the person as if it was a math problem they never would have gotten into debt in the first place.

[ExGingi]

The 1st 5-6 minutes of his interview with Ben Shapiro he explains that while mathmatically it makes no sense, he found that it wasn't an issue with the math, it was a problem with the person as if it was a math problem they never would have gotten into debt in the first place.

Hence, as I said:

Finance ≠ Math

[Kobe Bryant]

What happens when you lose your job and cant make payments towards your WL policy?

What happens to all other payments when you lose your job? Housing? Medical insurance? Utility Bills, etc.?

If the policy was properly overfunded, and especially if the policy is (even partially) seasoned, the policy will have enough to self support itself through the hard time. Also, if policy was set up with regular overfunding, it's easier to dial down the premium amount while keeping the coverage unaffected.

From what I gathered after sitting down with a LIA today is that in the first 4 years, one would lose everything they put in (Not so with retirement accounts.) and that the break even point would be in year 11.

[Kobe Bryant]

Here is another way to look at this:

Prepaying a (presumably fixed rate) mortgage converts a guaranteed CASH LIQUID asset into non-guaranteed, illiquid HOME EQUITY.

Now I know that when home prices are rising and banks are easily giving HELOCs, many people might not realize the risks involved. But remember that HELOCs can be frozen, shut down, or simply not offerred at any time the banks don't want to lend. Also, while we've seen an outstanding increase in home values (especially in BKLN and LKWD), prices don't always go up (they are possibly a little down from their peak). And here's something many people miss - prepaying a mortgage is irrelevant to your net worth, I actually know people that were kicking themselves for not having larger mortgage balances during the Making Home Affordable loan modification days.

Also, don't forget tax ramifications.

Care to elaborate?

[Kobe Bryant]

This, and its about the freedom one has when the pressure of paying monthly bills is removed. (not in the sense of freedom to stop working but the freedom to be able to search for the right opportunities without the pressure on your head of making ends meet)

obviously there are some expenses that will never disappear.

So now that we agree on that. What's there to argue about? Based on that argument, the Dave Ramsey Plan should be instructing people to purchase heavily overfunded Whole Life insurance in a way that it's either fully paid off or self sustaining in 10 years or less. No more life insurance bills to worry about. And peace of mind of having coverage that will never expire.

Do you market WL as life insurance or an investment?

[aygart]

Care to elaborate?

You are paying off pricipal dollar for dollar.

[aygart]

Do you market WL as life insurance or an investment?

I would guess as an investment with a side benefit of free LI included.

[CountValentine]

Probably basic financial skills, learning a budget and the like.

Just understanding some of the basics will help many.

You are paying off pricipal dollar for dollar.

[Kobe Bryant]

You are paying off pricipal dollar for dollar.

Because you greatly reduced your risk of foreclosure when you don't have a mortgage.

Also, is the choice between paying off your mortgage vs investing, or paying off your mortgage vs buying a nicer car?

well said.
Here's something many people miss-for the vast majority of people ( I would be comfortable saying well over 90%) the other choice wouldn't be "wow, we saved an extra $450 this month, let's invest it" rather at the end of the month they ask "WTH is that extra money?" So paying towards one house is relevant to one's net worth, and is one of the tools to build wealth and retire with dignity. 

[CountValentine]

Here's something many people miss-for the vast majority of people ( I would be comfortable saying well over 90%) the other choice wouldn't be "wow, we saved an extra $450 this month, let's invest it" rather at the end of the month they ask "WTH is that extra money?" So paying towards one house is relevant to one's net worth, and is one of the tools to build wealth and retire with dignity.

Does paying off your house really build wealth?

[aygart]

Here's something many people miss-for the vast majority of people ( I would be comfortable saying well over 90%) the other choice wouldn't be "wow, we saved an extra $450 this month, let's invest it" rather at the end of the month they ask "WTH is that extra money?" So paying towards one house is relevant to one's net worth, and is one of the tools to build wealth and retire with dignity. 

That comes down to the behavioral aspect of it not which makes more financial sense. If someone is otherwise blowing it on stupidity then they are better off paying down their mortgage. If they have the disipline to invest it that would be better.

[aygart]

Does paying off your house really build wealth?

Not one penny more than the saved interest. THe appreciation was yours before paying off the mortgage as well.