Author Topic: Are we going too far?  (Read 110322 times)

Offline WAM

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1020 on: March 19, 2023, 01:55:15 PM »

I believe he's using my theory here - politicians are corrupt.
Enter goalposts comment here.
Mrs. GP will now explain how really I'm the one that need a goalposts yelling and I cannot claim gp on her bec .....

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1021 on: March 19, 2023, 01:58:51 PM »

It is best for Pence to say that there is this deep state as that feeds the MAGA base. He needs that base if he ever wants to be president. Sometimes you just need to use common sense.  ;)
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1022 on: March 19, 2023, 02:37:16 PM »
It is best for Pence to say that there is this deep state as that feeds the MAGA base. He needs that base if he ever wants to be president. Sometimes you just need to use common sense.  ;)
I agree that Pence is saying that because he cares about himself, but then you are implicitly admitting that by default politicians are corrupt and in it for themselves as a baseline assumption.. Pence in fact has shown himself to be more loyal to the truth than to the Donald when he went above Trump to certify the elections.
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Offline WAM

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1023 on: March 19, 2023, 02:38:00 PM »
I agree that Pence is saying that because he cares about himself, but then you are implicitly admitting that by default politicians are corrupt and in it for themselves as a baseline assumption..
Wait - is this a goalposts accusation?

Offline S209

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1024 on: March 19, 2023, 02:40:22 PM »
Wait - is this a goalposts accusation?
I disagree with you that the burden of proof is on *him* to show you that politicians are not corrupt. You made the accusation, you back it up. That said, he clearly does agree with you at least somewhat as demonstrated here and elsewhere.
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1025 on: March 19, 2023, 02:41:42 PM »
I agree that Pence is saying that because he cares about himself, but then you are implicitly admitting that by default politicians are corrupt and in it for themselves as a baseline assumption.. Pence in fact has shown himself to be more loyal to the truth than to the Donald when he went above Trump to certify the elections.
The truth was also better and theoretically easier for him than the Donald at that point.

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1026 on: March 19, 2023, 02:46:33 PM »
I agree that Pence is saying that because he cares about himself, but then you are implicitly admitting that by default politicians are corrupt and in it for themselves as a baseline assumption.. Pence in fact has shown himself to be more loyal to the truth than to the Donald when he went above Trump to certify the elections.
I am not lumping all politicians in one group as others are trying to do. Pence IMHO is a decent person, and I would not consider him corrupt.

Again, the logic for lumping them all together is so one can justify to themselves for voting for a scumbag like Trump.
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1027 on: March 19, 2023, 02:54:58 PM »
the logic for lumping them all together is so one can justify to themselves for voting for a scumbag like Trump.
Your head is in the sand if you truly think this. It's ok if your head is in the sand, just don't expect others to join you. It's uncomfortable. The logic for lumping them all together was explained earlier. I'm pay sure the reason that folks voted for Trump was explained as well - he was better than the alternatives. You can disagree - its a free country.

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1028 on: March 19, 2023, 02:59:01 PM »
The logic for lumping them all together was explained earlier.
Just like your theory. If it makes you feel better, then so be it. Just don't confuse fantasy with reality.
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1029 on: March 19, 2023, 03:29:34 PM »

Again, the logic for lumping them all together is so one can justify to themselves for voting for a scumbag like Trump.
I believe just about all politicians are at least somewhat corrupt, although that is not a total indictment on their characters, and some of them are still decent people overall. Itís why I support raising their salaries enormously and being stricter about campaign finance transparencies- the temptation is too great and itís too difficult to succeed honestly in the current environment so even decent men fall prey.

I also think character matters greatly in a candidate but I still voted for Trump twice (once in a primary and once in a general election).
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1030 on: March 19, 2023, 03:36:24 PM »
I believe just about all politicians are at least somewhat corrupt, although that is not a total indictment on their characters, and some of them are still decent people overall. Itís why I support raising their salaries enormously and being stricter about campaign finance transparencies- the temptation is too great and itís too difficult to succeed honestly in the current environment so even decent men fall prey.
How about the governor of IL that is a billionaire. Should we use the same logic then he isn't corrupt since he doesn't need the money?
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1031 on: March 19, 2023, 03:40:52 PM »
How about the governor of IL that is a billionaire. Should we use the same logic then he isn't corrupt since he doesn't need the money?
Yes absolutely he is less likely to be beholden to special interests other than his own. (Not unlikely, but less likely).

Still, itís far preferable from them to be incentivized to make the money from the job, not have it before the job (and potentially already be compromised).
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1032 on: March 19, 2023, 03:47:29 PM »
Yes absolutely he is less likely to be beholden to special interests other than his own. (Not unlikely, but less likely).
The media claims he is one of the most corrupt.

For some reason the assumption is politicians will be corrupted by money when the fact is they are no different than anyone else.
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1033 on: March 19, 2023, 03:53:40 PM »


The media claims he is one of the most corrupt.

For some reason the assumption is politicians will be corrupted by power because  the fact is they are no different than anyone else.
Ftfy
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1034 on: March 19, 2023, 06:09:45 PM »
The media claims he is one of the most corrupt.

For some reason the assumption is politicians will be corrupted by money when the fact is they are no different than anyone else.
How do you define fact?

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1035 on: March 19, 2023, 06:13:29 PM »
How about the governor of IL that is a billionaire. Should we use the same logic then he isn't corrupt since he doesn't need the money?
I believe needing outside money to get their job makes them beholden to the source of the money, which leads to corruption.
Another thing that leads to corruption of values is signing off on 3000 page "omnibus bills" or whatever they're called.
People agree to sign for what they don't believe in so that other sign for what they do believe in. Not necessarily will people agree that this is corruption, they may say the ends justify the means.

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1036 on: March 19, 2023, 06:20:20 PM »
How do you define fact?
Is that you Bill?  :)
ďIt depends on what the meaning of the word Ďisí is.Ē
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1037 on: March 19, 2023, 06:21:57 PM »
Another thing that leads to corruption of values is signing off on 3000 page "omnibus bills" or whatever they're called.
People agree to sign for what they don't believe in so that other sign for what they do believe in. Not necessarily will people agree that this is corruption, they may say the ends justify the means.
So to compromise is to be corrupt?
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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1038 on: March 19, 2023, 06:34:25 PM »
So to compromise is to be corrupt?
Depends on the compromise.

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1039 on: March 19, 2023, 06:36:07 PM »
Depends on the compromise.
I get my road and you get your bridge.
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