Are we going too far?

[zh cohen]

Let's start the other way, what's the source that any abortion is a problem?

שופך דם האדם באדם, דמו ישפוך

[PlatinumGuy]

שופך דם האדם באדם, דמו ישפוך

That issur is only for Goyim. The conversation was about Jews, let's try again.

The real question is where does the Torah prohibit abortion for Jews in the first place? It is far from clear, and most mainstream opinions believe it is thus not applicable in many scenarios.

[gozalim]

That issur is only for Goyim. The conversation was about Jews, let's try again.

the government should be legislating according to the dinim of b'nai noach, not holding 300m goyim to the halachic standard of jews

[PlatinumGuy]

the government should be legislating according to the dinim of b'nai noach, not holding 300m goyim to the halachic standard of jews

You want the government to enforce all dinim of Bnai Noach? Should infidelity be illegal as well?

[gozalim]

You want the government to enforce all dinim of Bnai Noach? Should infidelity be illegal as well?

yes, I want that,in theory. I believe that, were it possible, (יד ישראל תקיפה) that would be our responsibility to implement.

If they were taking on the whole mutzvos b'nai noach, I'd forego the constitution

[chinagel]

No, I'm demonstrating that even you agree that people thinking something is murder it doesn't make it murder. If thinking killing a cow is murder doesn't make it murder, thinking killing a fetus is murder doesn't make it murder either.

This is where the Torah comes in. As far as I'm concerned, if the Torah says I'm a monkey, I'm a monkey. If the Torah says abortion is not murder, it isn't murder, and it doesn't matter what people think it is.

I was under the impression we were discussing US law, not Torah. As you posted,

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state? Not that I think it matters here but I am pretty sure it is Halachichally permissible according to all major opinions.

And I asked

If you think it's murder, why should it matter?

Plenty here think of it as murder or akin to that. Why should it matter if they're a rape victim?
As far as

Source that rape victims are allowed to abort? Let's start the other way, what's the source that any abortion is a problem?

Mishneh Torah, Melachim 9:4
בֶּן נֹחַ שֶׁהָרַג נֶפֶשׁ אֲפִלּוּ עֵבָּר בִּמְעֵי אִמּוֹ נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג טְרֵפָה אוֹ שֶׁכְּפָתוֹ וּנְתָנוֹ לִפְנֵי אֲרִי אוֹ שֶׁהִנִּיחוֹ בָּרָעָב עַד שֶׁמֵּת. הוֹאִיל וְהֵמִית מִכָּל מָקוֹם נֶהֱרָג. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג רוֹדֵף שֶׁיָּכוֹל לְהַצִּילוֹ בְּאֶחָד מֵאֵיבָרָיו נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. מַה שֶּׁאֵין כֵּן בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל:

A non-Jew who kills someone, even a fetus in its mother’s womb, is executed.

[PlatinumGuy]

Plenty here think of it as murder or akin to that

They think wrongly. It is objectively different than murder, and the proof is, that the Torah differentiates between the two.

As far asMishneh Torah, Melachim 9:4
בֶּן נֹחַ שֶׁהָרַג נֶפֶשׁ אֲפִלּוּ עֵבָּר בִּמְעֵי אִמּוֹ נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג טְרֵפָה אוֹ שֶׁכְּפָתוֹ וּנְתָנוֹ לִפְנֵי אֲרִי אוֹ שֶׁהִנִּיחוֹ בָּרָעָב עַד שֶׁמֵּת. הוֹאִיל וְהֵמִית מִכָּל מָקוֹם נֶהֱרָג. וְכֵן אִם הָרַג רוֹדֵף שֶׁיָּכוֹל לְהַצִּילוֹ בְּאֶחָד מֵאֵיבָרָיו נֶהֱרָג עָלָיו. מַה שֶּׁאֵין כֵּן בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל:

A non-Jew who kills someone, even a fetus in its mother’s womb, is executed.

As is a non Jew who believes in Christianity or cheats on their wife. So what?

Again,

The real question is where does the Torah prohibit abortion for Jews in the first place? It is far from clear, and most mainstream opinions believe it is thus not applicable in many scenarios.

Do you have an answer?

Keep on mocking me about 'learning Halacha from wikipedia', but my position stands up to scrutiny, and your does not.

yes, I want that,in theory. I believe that, were it possible, (יד ישראל תקיפה) that would be our responsibility to implement.

If they were taking on the whole mutzvos b'nai noach, I'd forego the constitution

So you're basically saying you would want the US government to impose our Religious beliefs. How would you feel if the US government imposes somebody else's religious belief? If they don't get to impose theirs, you don't get to impose your.

We want freedom and liberty even when it works against our agenda because it protects us from the tide turning against us.

[chinagel]

They think wrongly. It is objectively different than murder, and the proof is, that the Torah differentiates between the two.

Lol. You asked

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state?

I responded based on the opinion of anybody here, not yours. In addition, the Torah that you're quoting equates it with murder for a non-jew. Evidenced by the Rambam who holds that its part of the issur shefichas damim for Goyim.

As is a non Jew who believes in Christianity or cheats on their wife. So what?

You asked for a source before you provided your source, I gave one. If you want one for Yidden, see tosafos sanhedrin 59a ועל העוברים דעובד כוכבים חייב וישראל פטור אע"ג דפטור מ"מ לא שרי
Never mind that you completely made up that most poskim hold it's mutar in a case of rape. In addition, your assertion doesn't stand even had I not brought a source.

Again,
Do you have an answer?

See Tosafos above. As well as the fact that we need a heter where the child is a rodef. Obviously assur if not.

Keep on mocking me about 'learning Halacha from wikipedia', but my position stands up to scrutiny, and your does not.

How does your position stand up to anything? You claimed most poskim hold something, and you have not brought any.

So you're basically saying you would want the US government to impose our Religious beliefs. How would you feel if the US government imposes somebody else's religious belief? If they don't get to impose theirs, you don't get to impose your.

We want freedom and liberty even when it works against our agenda because it protects us from the tide turning against us.

You're the one who brought in the Torah so I responded to that. My original point was an answer to your question

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state?

To many it makes a lot of sense, since
 

If you think it's murder, why should it matter?

[yungermanchik]

They think wrongly. It is objectively different than murder, and the proof is, that the Torah differentiates between the two.

As is a non Jew who believes in Christianity or cheats on their wife. So what?

Again,
Do you have an answer?

Keep on mocking me about 'learning Halacha from wikipedia', but my position stands up to scrutiny, and your does not.
So you're basically saying you would want the US government to impose our Religious beliefs. How would you feel if the US government imposes somebody else's religious belief? If they don't get to impose theirs, you don't get to impose your.

We want freedom and liberty even when it works against our agenda because it protects us from the tide turning against us.

See Igros Moshe C"M 2 Siman 69

[PlatinumGuy]

That’s what happens when you get Halacha from Wikipedia

בכל דרכיך דעהו

In addition, the Torah that you're quoting equates it with murder for a non-jew.

This is not true, it is a secondary issur but absolutely not identical to murder. The fact that the Torah did not include fetus's in the prime issur for Jews prove the 2 actions are objectively distinct. Additionally, if you accept the Torah's definition of prohibited abortion, it may only apply after 40 days or etc.

Evidenced by the Rambam who holds that its part of the issur shefichas damim for Goyim

He says that also about כפתו ונתנו ברעב (and presumably even other cases of צמצם עליו את המים) that aren't punishable to Jews and are clearly distinct from proactive first degree murder.

So abortion is definitely not just as much 'murder' as a regular human, even if both are prohibited. People thinking it is murder doesn't make it murder.

Does anybody think it is fair for people to think something is murder and use that to force a woman who isn't their property to be pregnant for 9 months, when she was forced into the pregnancy in the first place?

If you want one for Yidden, see tosafos sanhedrin 59a ועל העוברים דעובד כוכבים חייב וישראל פטור אע"ג דפטור מ"מ לא שרי

According to many Achronim he means an Issur no different than contraception

How does your position stand up to anything? You claimed most poskim hold something, and you have not brought any.

Was waiting to see if you were intent on having a serious conversation before I put in the effort, here you go:

רש"י על סנהדרין ע״ב ב:י״ד:א׳

יצא ראשו - באשה המקשה לילד ומסוכנת וקתני רישא החיה פושטת ידה וחותכתו ומוציאתו לאברים דכל זמן שלא יצא לאויר העולם לאו נפש הוא

Ramban, Torat Ha’Adam Sha’ar Ha’Mechush – Inyan Sakanah

תינוק בן יום אחד וההורגו חייב, ודוקא בן יום אחד אבל עובר לא, וקרא נמי כתיב דמשלם דמי ולדות, אפילו הכי לענין שמירת מצות מחללין עליה, אמרה תורה חלל עליו שבת אחת שמא ישמור שבתות הרבה. הלכך אפי’ בהצלת עובר פחות מבן ארבעים יום שאין לו חיות כלל מחללין עליו כדעת בעל הלכות.

שו”ת מהרי”ט, א:צט

ולהתעסק עמה שתפיל פרי בטנה איבוד נפשות אין כאן דאפילו בישראל נפלים לאו נפש הוא וממון הוא דחייב רחמנא דמי וולדות לבעל דכתיב כאשר ישית עליו בעל האשה ובריש הנחנקין אמרינן ואצטריך למכתב מכה איש ומת ואצטריך למכתב כל מכה נפש דאי כתיב כל מכה נפש הוה אמינא אפילו נפלים קמשמע לן ובפרק יוצא דופן דרשינן כל נפש לרבות קטן בן יום אחד דמשמע כל נפש אפילו נפש כל דהו אלמא נפלים אפי' נפש כל דהוא לא מקרי ובסוף פרק קמא דערכין תנן האשה שהיא יוצאה ליהרג אין ממתינין לה עד שתלד ופרכינן פשיטא גופה היא סד"א הואיל וכתיב אשר ישית עליו בעל האשה ממונא דבעל הוא ולא לפסדיה מיניה קמשמע לן ומדפריך פשיטא משמע דמחמת איבוד נפשות אין נדנוד כלל ולא אתא לאשמועינן אלא משום פסידא דבעל ואמרינן התם האשה שהיא יוצאה ליהרג מכין אותה כנגד בית הריון שלה כדי שימות הולד תחילה שלא תבא לידי ניול אלמא בשביל ניול האם הורגים הולד בידים ולא חשו משום איבוד נפשות הילכך בישראלית מפני צורך אמו נראה שמותר להתעסק עמהם שתפילנה כיון דרפואת אמו

חוות יאיר ל"א

ועל דבר שאלתך אשת איש שהרה לזנונים ואחר המעשה נתחרט' ונתנה קולה בבכי גם יום גם לילה אל תתני פוגת בת עינה רק הורידה כנחל דמעה והטיחה ראשה בכותל עד כי זוב דמה מראשה והגידה לבעלה וגם בקשה מחכם שיסדרו לה תשוב' וככל אשר יושבת עלי' תעשה. רק כאשר חששה שנתעברה ממנ' באשר מאז שנעשה המעשה פסק וסתה אשר היה לה תמידין כסדרן בהיותה תחת בעלה כמה שנים הלכה אל חכם ושאלו לו אם רשאית לגמוע דבר מאבקת רוכל לשלשל זרע המקולל אשר בקרבה ובקשת דעתי בזה...

ולפי המשך דברי התו' היה נראה דיש כאן ג' חילוקי דינים בעובר דכשמתה אמו חייב ההורגו לעובר בדעקר. ובעדיין חיה ההורג פטור אבל אסור להורגו דעקר מש"כ מש"כ כדאכתי לא עקר משמע דמותר.
ובאמת התוס' לא נחתו לחלק בפ' בחילוק פטור או מותר. ולכאורה משמע דאפי' עקר נמי מותר...

ומ"מ מקמי דעקר נראה דלכ"ע מותר



וא"כ לפי מ"ש היה היתר גמור שאלתך אשר שאלת מדין תורה לולי המנהג הפשוט בינינו וביניהם מפני גדר פרצות המריצות והזונים אחריהם.

שו”ת שאילת יעבץ חלק א סימן מג

אם יש איסור לקלקל עובר בבטן אמו שזינתה. בין פנויה בין אשת איש.
תשובה בס’ חות יאיר (אחר סי’ ל”א) מצאתי שנשאל הרב בעל הס’ על אשת איש הרה לזנונים. ואחר המעשה נתחרטה כו’ אם רשאה לגמוע דבר מאבקת רוכל לשלשל זרע המקולל אשר בקרבה…
כן נ”ל שיש מקום להקל כיון שניאפה זאת ודם בידיה. מעתה בת קטלא היא מדין תורה. אף שאין דמה מסור בידינו להורגה. מכל מקום חייבת מיתה בדין שמים…. אע”ג דממזר כשיצא לאויר העולם. דינו ככשר שחייבין על הריגתו. מיהת השתא דירך אמו הוא. ואילו היה דינה מסור בידינו. היינו ממיתים אותה ואת פרי בטנה… על כן היה נ”ל
פשוט שאין איסור גם כן בהשחתתו. אע”פ שאימא קיימת…

 וגם בעובר כשר הי’ צד להקל לצורך גדול. כל כמה דלא עקר. אפי’ אינו משום פקוח נפש אמו. אלא להציל לה מרעתו. שגורם לה כאב גדול וצ”ע.

ציץ אליעזר ח"ט נא, ג, ג https://www.hebrewbooks.org/14508

י”ב אשת איש שזנתה או נאנסה ונתעברה ואפילו מעכו”ם שאין הולד ממזר וחזרה בתשובה, מצדדים כמה מגדולי הפוס’ להתיר לסדר הפלה אי משום בזיונה ואי משום חלול השם ופגם ובזיון המשפחה [ואי משום נימוקים אחרים הנזכרים בפנים

(yes, yes, I know not every rape makes a mamzer)

As well as the fact that we need a heter where the child is a rodef.
 

The Gemara only mentions that in a case when the birth process began. (See above from Tosefos that differentiates)

yes, I want that,in theory. I believe that, were it possible, (יד ישראל תקיפה) that would be our responsibility to implement.

Basically you want the USA to give you freedom to pursue your religion even when it is against their beliefs (divorce, bris, shechita), but don't want to reciprocate and give them freedom to commit acts that you believe are a sin.

According to the torah, while we are in Galus the goyim are entitled to enslave and persecute us. Would you be comfortable with that too or would you still prefer we don't let the US government enforce the rules of the torah?

[aygart]

Does anybody think it is fair for people to think something is murder and use that to force a woman who isn't their property to be pregnant for 9 months, when she was forced into the pregnancy in the first place?

Where does "fair" come into the picture?

[chinagel]

We can argue if you want to call it murder or not. (I'd think it's more similar to killing a treifah, which most would call murder, not tying s/o up). Eitherway, the Rambam includes it in the din shfichas damim for a Goy. So the question remains, why should you allow it for a rape victim?


As far as the sources you bring, the first few are just noise. (Not talking about allowing abortions.)
The Maharit, though he's only talking about a yid to a goya, says mutar. (Though according to the Yaavetz you quote, his proof isn't a proof.)
The Ch"y actually comes out that it's assur to do a maaseh at the end of the teshuva.
The Yaavetz' heter is because she's anyways mechuyav misah. By rape he leaves with tzarich iyun.

Hardly "most" acharonim.

[gozalim]

Basically you want the USA to give you freedom to pursue your religion even when it is against their beliefs (divorce, bris, shechita), but don't want to reciprocate and give them freedom to commit acts that you believe are a sin.

According to the torah, while we are in Galus the goyim are entitled to enslave and persecute us. Would you be comfortable with that too or would you still prefer we don't let the US government enforce the rules of the torah?

in practice, having US gov enforce שבע מצוות is not practically doable in current legal/constitutional jurisprudence, for the reasons you mention. As someone who follows Torah above all other sources of 'fairness' 'morality' etc., if it was doable, I would prioritize that over the imagined safety and fairness 'ensured' by the man-made constitution. but that's theoretical.

if you want to discuss torah's view on abortion as relates to US law, דיני בני נח is the better basis than דיני ישראל. not that there's constitutional basis for enforcing either one

[PlatinumGuy]

Hardly "most" acharonim.

Even 2 Acrhonim is most if nobody argues with them.

Is there a single Achron other than RMF who holds it is assur for somebody pregnant with a Mamzer to abort?

 

We can argue if you want to call it murder or not.

There is nothing to argue about it. You can argue if it is 99% murder or 10% murder, but it is objectively not 100% murder. You can be dishonest, but you can't dispute it.

(I'd think it's more similar to killing a treifah, which most would call murder, not tying s/o up).

Seriously? Would Rashi say a Treifa isn't 'Nefesh' Would the Achronim who say aboriton isn't assur at all also hold that killing a treifa is murder??? Would Achronim who say the only issur is similar to contraception also think contraception is worse than killing a Triefa???

The Torah is the ruler, and it shows beyond a shadow of doubt that killing a Treifah is worse than killing a fetus, and the fact that you instinctively thinks so means you should be reconciling you're natural inclination with the truth.

Eitherway, the Rambam includes it in the din shfichas damim for a Goy. So the question remains, why should you allow it for a rape victim?

You're asking me why something should be allowed, but the baseline is freedom. Everybody can do what they wish. You have to justify why you can stop someone from doing something?

Why should you be allowed to impose your opinion on what is and isn't murder on a woman who was forced into a pregnancy because your religion considers it a sin to abort?

I'll repeat the same question. If 99% of the country believe hinduism or some religion that would consider killing cows worse than killing people, and call it 'murder'. Does that give them the right to decide you cannot kill cows?

in practice, having US gov enforce שבע מצוות is not practically doable in current legal/constitutional jurisprudence, for the reasons you mention. As someone who follows Torah above all other sources of 'fairness' 'morality' etc., if it was doable, I would prioritize that over the imagined safety and fairness 'ensured' by the man-made constitution. but that's theoretical.

I tend to agree with your position as I understand it - banning abortion is technically not in line with the American guarantee of freedom, and shouldn't be legal, but I like the ban anyways because I believe it forwards the will of Hashem.

Just don't forget, in the perfect world of 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach that you yearn for, you can also be persecuted and enslaved.

[AsherO]

in practice, having US gov enforce שבע מצוות is not practically doable in current legal/constitutional jurisprudence, for the reasons you mention. As someone who follows Torah above all other sources of 'fairness' 'morality' etc., if it was doable, I would prioritize that over the imagined safety and fairness 'ensured' by the man-made constitution. but that's theoretical.

if you want to discuss torah's view on abortion as relates to US law, דיני בני נח is the better basis than דיני ישראל. not that there's constitutional basis for enforcing either one

Even if it were possible the Shulchan Aryeh for 7 Noahide laws wasn’t written, and if there was as much Rabbinic literature on the topic as there is on Halacha for Jews there would be just as many shitos.

Additionally, the 7th Noahide law is to establish courts of law. The implementation of that in the context of the US constitution/modern values w/r/t civil liberties would have to be delineated. I don’t think the Torah’s approach on that topic is all that clear or agreed upon by all DDFers, let alone all poskim.

[AsherO]

iYou can argue if it is 99% murder or 10% murder, but it is objectively not 100% murder. You can be dishonest, but you can't dispute it.

This whole discussion about murder is silly. You’re certainly killing a living being. Murder by definition means killing someone unlawfully or immorally. So your very discussion about whether it’s prohibited or not is basically whether the Torah considers it murder or not. If there’s a legal/halachic exception then the killing isn’t called murder.

[chinagel]

Even 2 Acrhonim is most if nobody argues with them.

Is there a single Achron other than RMF who holds it is assur for somebody pregnant with a Mamzer to abort?

 

Except that the CH"Y you brought says assur. So all you have is a maharit.
Don't switch to mamzer, we were talking about rape.
In addition, since we know abortion is assur in general, the assumption is it applies to rape as well until proven otherwise.

There is nothing to argue about it. You can argue if it is 99% murder or 10% murder, but it is objectively not 100% murder. You can be dishonest, but you can't dispute it.

So you're agreeing it's a form of murder? (Can we call it abizrayhu?) Then the question: Why should it be allowed in a case of rape?

Seriously? Would Rashi say a Treifa isn't 'Nefesh' Would the Achronim who say aboriton isn't assur at all also hold that killing a treifa is murder??? Would Achronim who say the only issur is similar to contraception also think contraception is worse than killing a Triefa???

The Torah is the ruler, and it shows beyond a shadow of doubt that killing a Treifah is worse than killing a fetus, and the fact that you instinctively thinks so means you should be reconciling you're natural inclination with the truth.

I don't think it's the same thing, just more comparable than tying up a person who starves.

You're asking me why something should be allowed, but the baseline is freedom. Everybody can do what they wish. You have to justify why you can stop someone from doing something?

Why should you be allowed to impose your opinion on what is and isn't murder on a woman who was forced into a pregnancy because your religion considers it a sin to abort?

I'll repeat the same question. If 99% of the country believe hinduism or some religion that would consider killing cows worse than killing people, and call it 'murder'. Does that give them the right to decide you cannot kill cows?

I honestly never intended to get into the actual discussion if I think it should be illegal. (Would need to be in person to explain my opinions.) I was just asking why you think that cases of rape should be viewed differently for anyone who thinks it's murder. I still haven't gotten a clear answer to that. If your whole argument is that it's not murder, you agreed above that it's a form of murder even if not the same as first degree. So why should we allow it in a case of rape?

[PlatinumGuy]

Except that the CH"Y you brought says assur. So all you have is a maharit.

And the Tzitz Eliezer. Of course after you cancelled Rashi and the Ramban because they don't fit your personal feelings.

So, I'm at 2 Achronim, you're at 1. I have most achronim.

Don't switch to mamzer, we were talking about rape.

By rape I meant in case where the baby would be a mazer. If that wasn't clear, I apologize. Nevertheless, rape would normally qualify as צורך גדול.

I don't think it's the same thing, just more comparable than tying up a person who starves.

But it's not more comparable. That can be proven (tying somebody up to starve is חייב בדיני שמים, abortion according to some is not), but you refuse to believe in the Torah because you think you know better.

.I honestly never intended to get into the actual discussion if I think it should be illegal.

The conversation was about the Tennessee legislature, not the moral values. I'm asking again, why should someone thinking something is murder give them authority to prevent a raped woman from aborting, and how would that be different than people who think slaughtering a cow is abhorrent preventing you from eating steak?

You keep on evading by attacking me and changing the question into why it should be allowed, but the natural state is that everything is allowed, you need justification to interfere in somebody's life and actions.

I was just asking why you think that cases of rape should be viewed differently for anyone who thinks it's murder. I still haven't gotten a clear answer to that. If your whole argument is that it's not murder, you agreed above that it's a form of murder even if not the same as first degree. So why should we allow it in a case of rape?

A rape victim is monumentally different because it is much more reasonable to compel a woman to maintain a pregnancy that she entered willingly and has obligations towards than one she was violently forced into and was vehemently uninterested in to begin with. You're basically saying you don't understand the difference between forcing parents to feed their kids, and forcing a family to accept a foster care child and feed them.

Do you not agree?

[yungermanchik]

See Igros Moshe C"M 2 Siman 69

Did you bother reading this t'shuvah? because Rav Moshe Feinstein address all of your claims!

[PlatinumGuy]

Did you bother reading this t'shuvah? because Rav Moshe Feinstein address all of your claims!

Yes I read it carefully, and I appreciate that you posted it, thank you. As far as I can tell, RMF is a minority opinion both in believing abortion is always assur and in believing the source of the issur is murder as opposed to בל תשחית. Do you know anybody else who holds like him?