Author Topic: Are we going too far?  (Read 138558 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #540 on: February 14, 2021, 08:38:43 AM »
BTW Daily Wire hired her to make a film for them.

Ah, you mean the vaunted motion picture studio and fierce Disney competitor, Daily Wire? Lucky her, she ended up better off.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #541 on: February 14, 2021, 10:17:45 AM »
Ah, you mean the vaunted motion picture studio and fierce Disney competitor, Daily Wire? Lucky her, she ended up better off.
She's getting a paycheck.

Offline chinagel

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #542 on: February 14, 2021, 06:34:04 PM »

Does anybody here think it is fair for the government to prohibit a rape victim from getting an early term abortion even by traveling to another state?
If you think it's murder, why should it matter?
Not that I think it matters here but I am pretty sure it is Halachichally permissible according to all major opinions.
Source?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #543 on: February 14, 2021, 06:54:01 PM »
If you think it's murder, why should it matter?

Do you think murdering a human and murdering a fetus are exactly the same thing, or is there a little difference? The Torah explicitly does not consider murder to include abortion. There are 2 key differences IMHO. First, a human being is a soul, the body is just a wrapper. The soul isn't fully present in this world until birth no matter how late stage the pregnancy is. Second, abortion isn't proactively taking independent life, it is simply removing the mothers protection. Why should the mother be forced to sustain life, of a rapist no less?

An abortion is preserving the woman's sovereignty on her body.  That includes the freedom to sin with her body. The Torah doesn't place penultimate value on freedom, so we believe a woman is generally obligated to sustain the infant, and stopping the pregnancy is a severe moral transgression. But do we want the government to enforce our religious obligations? The Torah considers marital infidelity and incest to be far worse than abortion. Do we want the government to tell people who to sleep with? What about if the majority of a Chrisitian country want to impose the Catholic ban on divorce?

If a fetus's rights are so valuable that they warrant governmental intervention to compel the mother to fulfill her obligations toward it, what will you to those who argue an 8 day old baby shouldn't have its body mutilated because of our religious belief? We don't want a nanny state. The government shouldn't tell us what we should do to our babies, and it shouldn't force mothers to maintain pregnancies they aren't interested in, whether they are morally and religiously obligated to or not.

Source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion
See here to start, happy to discuss if you have a more specific question.

The real question is where does the Torah prohibit abortion for Jews in the first place? It is far from clear, and most mainstream opinions believe it is thus not applicable in many scenarios.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline YitzyS

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Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #545 on: February 14, 2021, 07:01:35 PM »
We don't want a nanny state.
Im so confused!
I really thought I had you figured out

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #546 on: February 14, 2021, 07:02:32 PM »
Im so confused!
I really thought I had you figured out
Not even close.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #547 on: February 14, 2021, 07:04:16 PM »
Not even close.
You mean you don’t drive a Prius with Bernie for president  and Coexist bumper stickers???

Offline grodnoking

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I'm not who you think I am.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #549 on: February 14, 2021, 07:06:38 PM »
Can you recommend one?
No. I went there looking for a shiur from Rabbi Frand, which I would recommend, but they didn't have it. I personally would most want to listen to Rav Gifter, not so much for the halachic analysis, as I'm sure there are others that would speak faster and say a lot more, but because he was a phenomenal speaker.

ETA: This was the Rabbi Frand shiur. I heard it many years ago, but I remember that it gave me a clear picture of the sugya. It costs $2.99 though to buy. https://torahmedia.com/flexcart/searchResults.php?sid=&cid=31h9e452nu524tx&evid=5yud447u2w&directlink=21439
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 07:12:18 PM by YitzyS »

Offline chinagel

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #550 on: February 14, 2021, 07:12:46 PM »
Do you think murdering a human and murdering a fetus are exactly the same thing, or is there a little difference? The Torah explicitly does not consider murder to include abortion. There are 2 key differences IMHO. First, a human being is a soul, the body is just a wrapper. The soul isn't fully present in this world until birth no matter how late stage the pregnancy is. Second, abortion isn't proactively taking independent life, it is simply removing the mothers protection. Why should the mother be forced to sustain life, of a rapist no less?

An abortion is preserving the woman's sovereignty on her body.  That includes the freedom to sin with her body. The Torah doesn't place penultimate value on freedom, so we believe a woman is generally obligated to sustain the infant, and stopping the pregnancy is a severe moral transgression. But do we want the government to enforce our religious obligations? The Torah considers marital infidelity and incest to be far worse than abortion. Do we want the government to tell people who to sleep with? What about if the majority of a Chrisitian country want to impose the Catholic ban on divorce?

If a fetus's rights are so valuable that they warrant governmental intervention to compel the mother to fulfill her obligations toward it, what will you to those who argue an 8 day old baby shouldn't have its body mutilated because of our religious belief? We don't want a nanny state. The government shouldn't tell us what we should do to our babies, and it shouldn't force mothers to maintain pregnancies they aren't interested in, whether they are morally and religiously obligated to or not.

I wasn't talking about my personal views.
I asked a simple question and it wasn't answered. This has nothing to do with yiddishkeit. For any regular American who considers abortion akin to murder, why should it be allowed in a case of rape?
 
As far as your Wikipedia article, the only part I noticed was the [citation needed].
So...
Source?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #551 on: February 14, 2021, 07:20:12 PM »
For any regular American who considers abortion akin to murder, why should it be allowed in a case of rape?
If any regular American considers killing cows 'akin to murder', should it be illegal?

What if they consider it OK only if it's euthanized, and only Shechita is murder?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline chinagel

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #552 on: February 14, 2021, 07:26:53 PM »
If any regular American considers killing cows 'akin to murder', should it be illegal?

What if they consider it OK only if it's euthanized, and only Shechita is murder?
So you're comparing the 2?
ETA: Still waiting on the source.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 07:31:00 PM by chinagel »

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #553 on: February 14, 2021, 07:29:36 PM »
So you're comparing the 2?
That’s what happens when you get Halacha from Wikipedia

Offline chinagel

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #554 on: February 14, 2021, 07:31:41 PM »
That’s what happens when you get Halacha from Wikipedia
You may be mixing up cause and effect.

Offline grodnoking

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #555 on: February 14, 2021, 07:46:23 PM »
If you think it's murder, why should it matter? Source?
Not even close.
No. I went there looking for a shiur from Rabbi Frand, which I would recommend, but they didn't have it. I personally would most want to listen to Rav Gifter, not so much for the halachic analysis, as I'm sure there are others that would speak faster and say a lot more, but because he was a phenomenal speaker.

ETA: This was the Rabbi Frand shiur. I heard it many years ago, but I remember that it gave me a clear picture of the sugya. It costs $2.99 though to buy. https://torahmedia.com/flexcart/searchResults.php?sid=&cid=31h9e452nu524tx&evid=5yud447u2w&directlink=21439
That’s what happens when you get Halacha
Please move over here.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=72246.0
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #556 on: February 14, 2021, 07:53:21 PM »
Please move over here.
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=72246.0
No need.

Those other posts were probably cleared off a thread where there was meaningful conversation taking place before the topic came up. Over here, it's not disturbing anyone...  :P

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #557 on: February 14, 2021, 07:56:32 PM »
No need.

Those other posts were probably cleared off a thread where there was meaningful conversation taking place before the topic came up. Over here, it's not disturbing anyone...  :P
+1
I’d give you a like, but I don’t want to be an enabler

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #558 on: February 14, 2021, 07:59:03 PM »
+1
I’d give you a like, but I don’t want to be an enabler
I don't even want your likes! OKAY?!

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #559 on: February 14, 2021, 08:03:42 PM »
So you're comparing the 2?
ETA: Still waiting on the source.

No, I'm demonstrating that even you agree that people thinking something is murder it doesn't make it murder. If thinking killing a cow is murder doesn't make it murder, thinking killing a fetus is murder doesn't make it murder either.

This is where the Torah comes in. As far as I'm concerned, if the Torah says I'm a monkey, I'm a monkey. If the Torah says abortion is not murder, it isn't murder, and it doesn't matter what people think it is.


ETA: Still waiting on the source.
Source that rape victims are allowed to abort? Let's start the other way, what's the source that any abortion is a problem?

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