Are we going too far?

[beeweegee]

Dead serious question. If your child was gay, would you love them any less?

No. Love, and more so unconditional love, does not have to equal approval of every decision you make.

[zh cohen]

Dead serious question. If your child was gay, would you love them any less?

No.

I would be very sad for them that they face such a huge and painful challenge.

If they engaged in any relations that they should not I would be sad for them and deeply pained by it.

[CountValentine]

So you are backtracking on this?

I am not backtracking on anything. I have no issue with satisfying both.

[Yehudaa]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/14/us/happy-elephant-bronx-zoo-personhood

I feel like this headline really belongs here.

The Nonhuman Rights Project advocates for the legal personhood of "autonomous, nonhuman animals" such as great apes, elephants, dolphins and whales, according to its website. The group has said that Happy is an "extraordinarily cognitively complex and autonomous nonhuman" and argues that she should be recognized as a "legal person" with the right to bodily liberty and that she should be immediately released from her "unlawful imprisonment" at the Bronx Zoo.

[S209]

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/14/us/happy-elephant-bronx-zoo-personhood

I feel like this headline really belongs here.

We say meshaneh habrios on monkeys and elephants because they are descended from humans, so the “apes and elephants” policy isn’t so crazy. 😝

[aygart]

We say meshaneh habrios on monkeys and elephants because they are descended from humans, so the “apes and elephants” policy isn’t so crazy. 😝

There are a number of sources for monkeys, but where is the source for elephants?

[S209]

There are a number of sources for monkeys, but where is the source for elephants?

S”A 225 based off Brachos 58

[Dawie]

S”A 225 based off Brachos 58

58b
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: הָרוֹאָה פִּיל, קוֹף וְקִפֹוף, אוֹמֵר: ״בָּרוּךְ … מְשַׁנֶּה אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת״. רָאָה בְּרִיּוֹת טוֹבוֹת, וְאִילָנוֹת טוֹבוֹת, אוֹמֵר: ״בָּרוּךְ … שֶׁכָּכָה לוֹ בְּעוֹלָמוֹ״.
The Sages taught: One who sees an elephant, a monkey, or a vulture (Rashi) recites: Blessed…Who makes creatures different. One who saw beautiful or otherwise outstanding creatures or beautiful trees recites: Blessed…Who has such things in His world.

[AsherO]

58b
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: הָרוֹאָה פִּיל, קוֹף וְקִפֹוף, אוֹמֵר: ״בָּרוּךְ … מְשַׁנֶּה אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת״. רָאָה בְּרִיּוֹת טוֹבוֹת, וְאִילָנוֹת טוֹבוֹת, אוֹמֵר: ״בָּרוּךְ … שֶׁכָּכָה לוֹ בְּעוֹלָמוֹ״.
The Sages taught: One who sees an elephant, a monkey, or a vulture (Rashi) recites: Blessed…Who makes creatures different. One who saw beautiful or otherwise outstanding creatures or beautiful trees recites: Blessed…Who has such things in His world.

What’s the normative approach to interpreting this? Is it meant literally? Does it imply evolution (or dare I say Evolution)?

[S209]

What’s the normative approach to interpreting this? Is it meant literally? Does it imply evolution (or dare I say Evolution)?

In the Dor Haflagah Hashem turned some of them into other species. Apparently elephants and monkeys can understand human language, so these were some of the divisions HKBH created at that time.

[S209]

S”A 225 based off Brachos 58

In the Dor Haflagah Hashem turned some of them into other species. Apparently elephants and monkeys can understand human language, so these were some of the divisions HKBH created at that time.

Specifically in the Meleches Shlomo there.

[aygart]

S”A 225 based off Brachos 58

Where does that show that they descended from humans?

[yitzgar]

58b
תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן: הָרוֹאָה פִּיל, קוֹף וְקִפֹוף, אוֹמֵר: ״בָּרוּךְ … מְשַׁנֶּה אֶת הַבְּרִיּוֹת״. רָאָה בְּרִיּוֹת טוֹבוֹת, וְאִילָנוֹת טוֹבוֹת, אוֹמֵר: ״בָּרוּךְ … שֶׁכָּכָה לוֹ בְּעוֹלָמוֹ״.
The Sages taught: One who sees an elephant, a monkey, or a vulture (Rashi) recites: Blessed…Who makes creatures different. One who saw beautiful or otherwise outstanding creatures or beautiful trees recites: Blessed…Who has such things in His world.

What does this show?

[Dawie]

What does this show?

just quoting the gemara
S209 said

We say meshaneh habrios on monkeys and elephants because they are descended from humans, so the “apes and elephants” policy isn’t so crazy. 😝

[S209]

Where does that show that they descended from humans?

Specifically in the Meleches Shlomo there.

http://halachayomit.co.il/en/default.aspx?HalachaID=5445

“Baruch Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot”
The Baraita (Berachot 58b) states, “One who sees an elephant, a monkey, or a Kipof recites ‘Baruch Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot’ (He Who makes creatures different).”

Identifying These Animals
Elephants and monkeys are animals we are all accustomed to. Regarding the Kipof, Tosafot (Chullin 63a) state that this refers to three different kinds of owls. The Gemara (Niddah 23a) states that their eyes go before them like people, i.e. these nocturnal birds’ eyes face forward unlike diurnal birds.

Why Do Specifically These Species Require This Blessing?
The reason why our Sages enacted this blessing to be recited upon seeing specifically these creatures is because the traits and features of these species are different than other wildlife. Regarding the owls, as we have mentioned above, their look is more similar to people, unlike other birds. The same must be said about elephants and monkeys in that they have distinct features and unique behavior among the rest of the animal kingdom.

Nevertheless, the question remains to be asked that there are many species around the world with stark distinctions and unique features, so why did the Sages not enact a blessing to be recited upon seeing them?

The Sefer Melechet Shlomo (authored by Hagaon Harav Shlomo Adani) on the Mishnah (Kilayim Chapter 8, Mishnah 6) writes: “Elephants and monkeys are kinds of animals upon which one recites the ‘Baruch Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot’ blessing. I have heard from the great and pious Mekubal, Rabbi Meshulam, who inquired, what is so different about them? He answered based on the Gemara (Sanhedrin 109a) that Hashem punished the people of the Generation of the Dispersion by turning some of them into elephants and monkeys. Thus, since primates have some human features and elephants understand the language of people somewhat, we recite this blessing.”

Visiting a Zoo
Regarding looking at these creatures in a zoo, there are some who prohibit it for all sorts of reasons, however, halachically speaking, Maran Rabbeinu Ovadia Yosef zt”l rules that one may visit a zoo to see Hashem’s wonderous creations and recite the appropriate blessings upon them. The Leket Yosher (student of the Terumat Ha’Deshen) writes that his rabbi, Rabbeinu Yisrael Isserlan, exclaimed that he had never seen a lion and therefore he went to the zoo where two lions were brought. Furthermore, Maran Ha’Chida writes in his Midbar Kedemot (Letter Bet), “I have seen in London’s Tower Bridge many different, frightening, and aggressive creatures. Some were possibly even more aggressive than lions. They were bound with iron chains. I also saw a beautiful eagle there. I was told it was one-hundred years old. I also saw some animals from America.”

In his Sefer Ma’agal Tov (Maran Ha’Chida’s personal diary printed posthumously), he writes, “When I visited London, they took me to a tower where many kinds of animals were kept, lions, leopards, and a one-hundred-year-old eagle. I also saw the likenesses of the kings of England in iron riding on iron horses. This was astounding and looked nearly life-like. I also saw the royal crown with its precious stones shining upon it.”

The Gaon of Muncasz writes: “When I was in Berlin, I visited the king’s zoo where I saw elephants, monkeys, snakes, alligators, and sorts of astounding creatures. How great are Hashem’s creations! I recited the ‘Baruch Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot’ blessing and I had in mind for the elephants as well, although they were in a different room.” Indeed, Maran zt”l once visited the zoo in France and he recited this special blessing.

Nevertheless, the Poskim discuss whether the “Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot” blessing may only be said once in one’s lifetime or if one may recite this blessing every time one sees elephants and monkeys (when thirty days or more have passed since one has last seen them). Halachically speaking, the great Rishon Le’Zion Rabbeinu Yitzchak Yosef Shlit”a (in his Responsa Ha’Rishon Le’Zion) and Hagaon Harav David Yosef Shlit”a (in his Halacha Berurah, Chapter 225) rule that one should only recite this blessing once a lifetime. The next time one sees an elephant or monkey, one should only recite this blessing in one’s mind because of the doubt involved.

Summary: One who sees an elephant, monkey, or owl should recite the blessing of “Baruch Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot” with Hashem’s name. One should only recite this blessing once during one’s lifetime though.

[aygart]

On the Mishna?

[S209]

On the Mishna?

Apparently. I remember seeing it brought down by several people when I learned the Gemara in Brachos.

[aygart]

Apparently. I remember seeing it brought down by several people when I learned the Gemara in Brachos.

Having difficulty finding.

[S209]

Having difficulty finding.

The Sefer Melechet Shlomo (authored by Hagaon Harav Shlomo Adani) on the Mishnah (Kilayim Chapter 8, Mishnah 6) writes: “Elephants and monkeys are kinds of animals upon which one recites the ‘Baruch Meshaneh Ha’Beriyot’ blessing. I have heard from the great and pious Mekubal, Rabbi Meshulam, who inquired, what is so different about them? He answered based on the Gemara (Sanhedrin 109a) that Hashem punished the people of the Generation of the Dispersion by turning some of them into elephants and monkeys. Thus, since primates have some human features and elephants understand the language of people somewhat, we recite this blessing.”

[aygart]

Monkeys is a Yalkut and other sources.