Author Topic: Are we going too far?  (Read 154568 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1140 on: May 20, 2024, 07:17:43 PM »
These are all examples of commutations, not pardons.
Either can be used.

Still waiting for you to answer the question of what was unjust about the jury's verdict besides the Gov not liking the decision?
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1141 on: May 20, 2024, 07:32:26 PM »
Still waiting for you to answer the question of what was unjust about the jury's verdict besides the Gov not liking the decision?

To me it seemed like a clear case of self defense/stand your ground. I know that you believe in the infallibility of a jury verdict, but that is something we will have to agree to disagree on.

Offline Yef

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1142 on: May 20, 2024, 07:36:26 PM »
And that is why a high elected official has pardon power. The jury gets things wrong sometimes. Everyone knows system is not perfect. So someone who is trusted enough to be elected by majority can overrule to acquit.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1143 on: May 20, 2024, 07:38:56 PM »
False. In Texas a pardon can only be given after a recommendation from the parole board, which reviewed the evidence and unanimously recommended the pardon.

He said he was going to pardon him the day after the verdict, and he appointed the parole board. You know I don't believe juries always get it right, but this was clearly a case where the pardon was not decided on after a rigorous review of the facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1144 on: May 20, 2024, 07:41:35 PM »
To me it seemed like a clear case of self defense/stand your ground. I know that you believe in the infallibility of a jury verdict, but that is something we will have to agree to disagree on.
I never said a jury is infallible. The Gov is overturning the jury's verdict because he didn't like the verdict, plain and simple. That isn't what pardons should be used for. As the thread states it is going too far.

What if the next president pardons all the rioters from Jan 6 just because they support him. Should pardons be used for that?
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1145 on: May 20, 2024, 08:59:47 PM »
Not familiar with this case at all but this country AG's are incentivized to lock up innocent people for extremely lengthy sentences without facing any repercussions. Until there's a less perverse justice system I'd like to see pardons handed out more often, not less.
Visibly Jewish

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1146 on: May 20, 2024, 09:31:33 PM »
Not familiar with this case at all but this country AG's are incentivized to lock up innocent people for extremely lengthy sentences without facing any repercussions. Until there's a less perverse justice system I'd like to see pardons handed out more often, not less.
You are not advocating for more convicted murderers to pardoned, are you?
Did this guy even serve a year in jail?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1147 on: May 21, 2024, 11:18:46 PM »
I think you missed my point. The guy who was just pardoned shot and killed a guy who was pointing a gun at him and demanding that he lower his car window.
To me it seemed like a clear case of self defense/stand your ground.
It seems you have the facts wrong. @zh cohen
“I believe he was going to aim it at me,” Perry said in a police interview. “I didn’t want to give him a chance to aim it at me, you know.”

This will be one hell of pretzel trying to still claim it was self-defense.  :)
 
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Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1148 on: May 22, 2024, 12:22:50 AM »
The president of the US besmirching the USA as being racist.
The president of the UNITY

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1149 on: May 23, 2024, 09:32:41 AM »
What do you think the purpose of the pardon power is?
How about a case like this? @zh cohen
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/oh-thank-you-god-texas-lawmakers-halting-melissa-lucio-s-execution-was-the-right-call/ar-BB1mQ9YO?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=LCTS&cvid=28214e2b339b45d0811ea05f2722de42&ei=26
'Oh thank you, God': Texas lawmakers halting Melissa Lucio's execution was the right call
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Offline yelped

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1150 on: May 23, 2024, 10:45:48 AM »

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1151 on: May 23, 2024, 01:43:17 PM »
How about a case like this? @zh cohen
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/oh-thank-you-god-texas-lawmakers-halting-melissa-lucio-s-execution-was-the-right-call/ar-BB1mQ9YO?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=LCTS&cvid=28214e2b339b45d0811ea05f2722de42&ei=26
'Oh thank you, God': Texas lawmakers halting Melissa Lucio's execution was the right call

Don't know details of this case (and can't open this article) but based on what I saw it seems like the legal system is working to fix its mistake, which means that a pardon will not be necessary.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1152 on: May 23, 2024, 01:46:01 PM »

What do you think the purpose of the pardon power is?
Cameron Todd Willingham

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1153 on: May 23, 2024, 02:05:46 PM »
Don't know details of this case (and can't open this article) but based on what I saw it seems like the legal system is working to fix its mistake, which means that a pardon will not be necessary.
This is going on since 2007 but even if it was last year.
You are ok with the other guy getting a pardon in less than a year with no new evidence.
In this case with a ton of new evidence and mistakes made at trial a pardon is not necessary.
I wonder why that is.
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Offline yelped

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1154 on: May 23, 2024, 02:27:41 PM »
The next step would be to allow them to pass failed tests and then these "doctors" could go and practice out in the wild:

https://x.com/aaronsibarium/status/1793657774767022569

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1155 on: May 31, 2024, 12:12:34 PM »
https://peterhimmelman.substack.com/p/my-time-at-city-hall?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1111381&post_id=144673110&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1z3b9n&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

Peter Himmelman is Bob Dylan's son-in-law (adopted daughter, though). An interesting character to say the least.

Quote
I’m not aware of many occasions on which I have become physically ill due to the sentiments expressed by a group of people. But the dizzy spells, the back pain, and the stomach issues began a few weeks ago at a Santa Monica city council meeting, where for reasons unknown to me, it became imperative that my beautiful city saw the need to pass a resolution — a resolution which hadn’t primarily called for the immediate release of all the kidnapped victims of Hamas’s pogrom of 10/7 and the total surrender of Hamas — but for an immediate and permanent ceasefire, which would serve only to embolden Hamas.

A throng of around 250 people showed up in their keffiyas, both young and old. They came not only to state their case, but to shout down the seven or so of us who spoke out against the resolution. I was screamed at as soon as I opened my mouth. All the while, the mayor pleaded with the crowd to allow me to continue. But sadly, they could scarcely contain themselves. It was, as I mentioned to my wife the next morning, a night I will never forget.

Tragically, many people today have become pawns in a game they don’t understand. Do they not know that by supporting this resolution, they are also supporting the Mullahs of Iran, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Houthis, and Hezbollah?* It was both strange and terrifying to me that many of the people I spoke with while waiting for the meeting to begin, hold the belief that America, Israel, and every other western liberal democracy is somehow inferior to the radical Islamist regimes. One young woman I spoke with explained to me that October 7 “didn’t happened in a vacuum.” She told me that after reading the works of Columbia University historian, Edward Said, she’d come to understand that the atrocities of October 7 were a “legitimate form of resistance.”

As movements like Jewish Voice For Peace, CODEPINK, Students For Justice In Palestine and others align themselves with radical Islamist causes, they are endangering those who support not only Israel, but democratic institutions across the globe. By painting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in stark, black-and-white terms, they overlook its complexity. In doing so they perpetuate a cycle of violence and division rather than hope for genuine reconciliation. When protest becomes synonymous with disruption, and dissent with destruction, the rule of law becomes a casualty, sacrificed on the altar of ego gratification, social status, and misguided righteous indignation. For those who support Israel, the consequences of this shift are dire. And as the rhetoric of radical Palestinian movements and their allies gains traction, supporters of Israel, such as myself, find themselves vilified and marginalized. Dissent is silenced, debate is stifled, and the space for reasoned discourse shrinks ever smaller.

Knowing how crowded it was likely to be at the city hall, I arrived at 5:00 PM. However, it wasn’t until a quarter to midnight that was I called to speak before the council. Looking out over the audience it was clear that a large percentage of the pro-resolution attendees were not from Santa Monica, yet they were all given an opportunity to speak their minds. As they did so, none were disturbed or interrupted. Whereas I, along with the few others who spoke out against the resolution were consistently interrupted, mocked, and jeered. Interesting to me, those interruptions became louder and more vociferous whenever a particularly salient point had been made by the anti-resolution side. Given the formality and uniformity with which they shouted down each of the anti-resolution speakers, it was evident that the pro-resolution people had been carefully coached. Let me provide you with some history on what I believe are the origins of their methods.

In the annals of political activism, few figures loom as large—or as controversial—as a man named, Saul Alinsky. Alinsky’s tactics, lauded by some as revolutionary and condemned by others as manipulative, have left an indelible mark on the landscape of democratic participation. As radicalized students take to the streets, their war-chants echoing in tacit —or overt support— of Hamas and other Islamist Palestinian movements, it begs the question: How much influence did Alinsky's methods for social and political change have on what we’re seeing today?

As I began to compare what I’d seen at the council meeting to some of Alinsky’s tactics, it became apparent they were indeed implemented; quite strategically and to powerful effect. The following is a short list of those tactics and the ways I saw them enacted by the pro-resolution crowd.

1.    Manipulation of Information: Deliberately spreading misinformation or selectively presenting facts to manipulate public opinion and sway support for a particular cause or agenda.

The words “genocide” and “genocidal” were used by almost every pro-resolution speaker. The term “colonialist” was employed almost as often, as was “oppressor” “deliberate murder of innocents,” and “apartheid state.” There was also a frequent conflation of Israelis (read: Jews) with Nazis.

2.    Manufacturing Crisis: Creating or exacerbating crises to generate urgency and mobilize support for a specific agenda or to discredit opponents.

Along with other anti-resolution supporters, I was curious to know why my local city council, which struggles with a severe homelessness problem and a housing shortage needed to weigh in on a hundred-year-old conflict, which no one on the council had studied in depth, and which had no relevance to community affairs. One possible reason: Alinsky’s Manufacturing Crisis tactic was employed to create a climate of fear around not voting yes to a ceasefire resolution. Here is a direct quote from one of the pro-resolution speakers: “Other cities around the country have passed a resolution; do you want to be known as the one city that is in favor of genocide?” While I can’t know for sure, I believe that statement had great sway over the council members’ decision-making process.

3.    Demonizing Opponents: Using inflammatory language and character attacks to vilify opponents and undermine their credibility, rather than engaging in reasoned debate or discussion.

Just as I began speaking I was showered with attacks on my character. “Islamophobic! “Mendacious!” “Liar!” “Murderer!” My friend, a rabbi, was heckled and laughed at during his short speech to the council. Several hours before the meeting began he was insulted by a woman as he walked toward the city council building: “You should have died on October 7th,” she shouted at him.

4.    Intimidation Tactics: Employing intimidation tactics, such as harassment or threats, to silence dissent or discourage opposition.

As I’ve mentioned, the mayor tried over and over to silence the shouts and taunts coming from the pro-resolution side. One woman had to be removed from the chambers. Unfortunately, this should have happened more often, and much sooner. I presume that those shouting were also coached. For some, it seems more effective to shut people down, rather than to listen to their ideas.

5.    Coercion and Extortion: Using coercion or extortion to compel individuals or organizations to comply with demands or support a particular agenda, often through threats of boycotts or other punitive measures.

In the end, the resolution passed. Six of seven council members voted for the resolution, with one brave woman voting against its passage. Given the hostility of the crowd, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume that the six council members feared that not passing the resolution would result in the kinds of dangerous civic disruption that had taken place on the UCLA campus, a mere fifteen-minute drive from city hall.

Perhaps you’re asking yourself why I would not be in favor of a ceasefire. What could be wrong with that? Why would anyone opt for war? Why would anyone not be for peace? I am not for war. I pray for peace several times a day. I desire peace. I demand peace! Unfortunately the path to peace —that is, true and lasting peace—must sometimes call for war. Think: Nazi Germany, Isis, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban.

I am often asked, “Isn’t there a better way? Isn’t there some cyber method that Israel has of eliminating Hamas, and freeing the hostages?” To me the question itself implies that Israelis —seven million of them—are not fighting an existential war of survival against Hamas, but are in fact a bloodthirsty people, hungering only for vengeance and death. That very question is but one reason I’ve come to use the term Blood Libel.**

It is indeed a blood libel to say that there is a better way to wage war, some magic wand that when waved will bring the war to a close. It is indeed a blood libel to suggest that rather than employ a fantastical death-free method of war-making the young men and women of the IDF—black, brown, Arab, Druze, Christian, and Jewish—are forgoing the peace wand, and by doing so, are willingly committing a “seventy-five year long genocide,” against the Palestinians. (Note: Over the past 75 years, the Palestinian population has experienced significant growth. At the time of Israel’s creation in 1948, the population was around 700,000. As of 2024, the population in Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, is estimated to be approximately 5.5 million​ (World Population Review)​.

There does indeed need to be a ceasefire. I want one desperately. But it can’t be a mere cessation of hostilities. That would only give time for Hamas to reorganize and to terrorize again and again, just as they’ve publicly declared they would. I have also been told that Hamas is an “ideology,” and that ideologies can’t be destroyed. True. But an unarmed ideology cannot murder, rape, torture, and kidnap. The path to a ceasefire is simpler than most people make it.

1. Hamas submits to a total surrender. 2. Every hostage is returned.

Think about this: Right now young women are being raped in tunnels beneath Gaza. They are being tortured and abused day in and day out. From the reports of returned kidnapped victims so are men being raped and tortured. And at this very moment the Bibas brothers, K’fir and Ariel (two and four years old) are being held underground by Hamas. (May those children be rescued, alive and well.)

So you decide. Is an immediate and permanent ceasefire with a barbaric Islamist death cult what we need? Is this what city councils across the America should be proposing? Or would it make more sense to draft a resolution, which unequivocally calls for Hamas’s surrender and the immediate return of Israel’s kidnapped men, women, and children — and/or their bodies? The war would end soon afterwards. It would be a giant stride forward on the path to peace.

Israel is a fact on the ground. It is a post-facto reality—undeniable. It is a stable and powerful democracy, the sole democracy in the entire Middle East. Unfortunately, the Palestinians continue to use the story of Algerian independence over the French as an analogy for how they might one day destroy Israel. But unlike France, Israel is not a colonialist nation. The conflict between it and the Palestinians is in no way similar to the French conquest of Algeria, where when the French lost that long and terrible war, they simply went back to France. The seven million Jews of Israel have no France to return to. Israel is their only home.

Peace will be achievable at the moment when the entire Palestinian leadership recognizes that Israel is here to stay and when it integrates this recognition into their strategic thinking about genuine peace, their own productivity, and the education of future generations of Palestinian children.

Quote
*The following is Imam Khamenei's letter addressed to American university students following their “courageous defense” of the Palestinian people.
In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful
I am writing this letter to the young people whose awakened conscience has moved them to defend the oppressed women and children of Gaza.
Dear university students in the United States of America, this message is an expression of our empathy and solidarity with you. As the page of history is turning, you are standing on the right side of it.
You have now formed a branch of the Resistance Front and have begun an honorable struggle in the face of your government's ruthless pressure—a government which openly supports the usurper and brutal Zionist regime.
The greater Resistance Front which shares the same understandings and feelings that you have today, has been engaged in the same struggle for many years in a place far from you. The goal of this struggle is to put an end to the blatant oppression that the brutal Zionist terrorist network has inflicted on the Palestinian nation for many years. After seizing their country, the Zionist regime has subjected them to the harshest of pressures and tortures.
The apartheid Zionist regime's genocide today is the continuation of extreme oppressive behavior which has been going on for decades. Palestine is an independent land with a long history. It is a nation comprised of Muslims, Christians, and Jews. 
After the World War, the capitalist Zionist network gradually imported several thousand terrorists into this land with the help of the British government. These terrorists attacked cities and villages, murdered tens of thousands of people and pushed out multitudes into neighboring countries. They seized their homes, businesses and farmlands, formed a government in the usurped land of Palestine and called it Israel.
After England's initial help, the United States became the greatest supporter of this usurper regime, ceaselessly providing it with political, economic and military support. In an act of unforgivable recklessness, the United States even opened the way and provided assistance for the regime's production of nuclear weapons.
The Zionist regime used an iron-fist policy against the defenseless people of Palestine from the very beginning and has, day by day, intensified its brutality, terror and repression in complete disregard of all moral, human and religious values.
The United States government and its allies refused to even frown upon this state terrorism and ongoing oppression. And today, some remarks by the US government regarding the horrific crimes taking place in Gaza are more hypocritical than real.
The Resistance Front emerged from this dark environment of despair, and the establishment of the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran expanded and fortified it.
The global Zionist elite – who owns most US and European media corporations or influences them through funding and bribery – has labeled this courageous, humane resistance movement as "terrorism".
Can one call a people a terrorist nation for defending themselves on their own land against the crimes of the occupying Zionists? And is helping such a nation and strengthening it, an act of terrorism?
The oppressive leaders of global hegemony mercilessly distort even the most basic human concepts. They portray the ruthless, terrorist Israeli regime as acting in self-defense ­– yet they portray the Palestinian Resistance which defends its freedom, security and the right to self-determination, as terrorists!
I would like to assure you that today the circumstances are changing. A different fate awaits the important region of West Asia. The people's conscience has awakened on a global scale, and the truth is coming to light.
Moreover, the Resistance Front has grown in strength and will become even stronger.
And history is turning a page.
Besides you students from dozens of American universities, there have also been uprisings in other countries among academics and the general public.
The support and solidarity of your professors is a significant and consequential development. This can offer some measure of comfort in the face of your government's police brutality and the pressures it is exerting on you. I too am among those who empathize with you young people, and value your perseverance.
The Quran's lesson for us Muslims and all of humanity, is to stand up for that which is right: "So be steadfast as you have been commanded" (11:112).
The Quran's lesson for human relations is: "Do not oppress and do not be oppressed" (2:279).
The Resistance Front advances by a comprehensive understanding and the practice of these and hundreds of other such commands – and will attain victory with the permission of God.
My advice to you is to become familiar with the Quran.
Sayyid Ali Khamenei
May 25, 2024
** Blood libel is a false and malicious accusation made against Jews, claiming that they kidnapped and murdered Christian children to use their blood for religious rituals, particularly during Passover. This baseless myth originated in medieval Europe and has led to widespread anti-Semitic violence and persecution over the centuries.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1156 on: May 31, 2024, 12:22:48 PM »
Electing a convicted felon to lead our great country?

Discussion: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=122743.0

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Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1157 on: May 31, 2024, 02:10:05 PM »
Electing a convicted felon to lead our great country?

Discussion: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=122743.0
can you show me a similar case?

Offline yelped

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1158 on: June 16, 2024, 01:34:00 AM »
Now we know why something like only 2 stations have been built...

https://x.com/aaronsibarium/status/1801646545529364924

Offline yelped

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Re: Are we going too far?
« Reply #1159 on: June 17, 2024, 12:01:26 PM »
Who would have guessed that crazy politics lead to crazy situations like this:

https://x.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1802530757442719764