Author Topic: The Vulnerables ARE Us  (Read 5411 times)

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1393
  • Total likes: 1692
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
The Vulnerables ARE Us
« on: June 12, 2020, 02:23:58 PM »
I was bringing grumpiness to the Good News thread, so will start a new one.

Several comments over the past week suggest that we should reopen already, and let those who are fearful or vulnerable just stay home or take the risks.  I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but here are a couple I see:

“I still believe there is some balance where we can mitigate the effects of a second wave (limit big events and protect the vulnerable) as well as open up everything else…”

“It's time to open completely and let the vulnerable population decide their own risk tolerance.”

As if there's an Us and a Them; a young, healthy, risk-taking Us and a small, sickly (though much-loved) Them.

This reminds me of a quote from Isaac Harby, a lawyer in the large Jewish community of Charleston SC.  It was 1816, and Mordechai Manuel Noah had just been removed from his diplomatic post in North Africa.  In firing him, the Secretary of State said that he never would have appointed Noah to work in a Muslim country, had he known that Noah was Jewish.  Harby protested that Jews are not some separate group of Them, protected by a benevolent majority of Us Americans, but rather they are Americans.  There is no “them” and “us”.  Or, as he put it,

"[Jews] are by no means to be considered as a religious sect, tolerated by the government; They constitute a portion of the People. They are, in every respect, woven in and compacted with the citizens of the Republic. Quakers and Catholics; Episcopalians and Presbyterians, Baptists and Jews, all constitute one great political family."

I would paraphrase his argument for our situation today:  The vulnerables are not some miniscule group of unfortunates, to be tolerated and protected by the healthy.  Rather, the vulnerables are closely linked to the healthy, dispersed among them, an integral part of the community.   

The vulnerables are Us. 

Just what “portion of the People” are the vulnerables?

The Kaiser Foundation tried to calculate the number of Americans who are vulnerable, because they’re either over 65, or because they’re in the younger 18-64 year old age group with “heart disease, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), uncontrolled asthma, diabetes, or a BMI greater than 40”. 

They concluded that 38% of Americans are vulnerable to serious illness if they get covid. Let’s add 12% to include the immunocompromised, those who live with or care for a vulnerable person, and those who’ve had a severe case of covid and are especially motivated to avoid re-infection.  That brings us to a round 50% who may consider that they must take extreme steps to avoid getting covid.  I would guess the real number is higher.

The vulnerables include the former customers of the businesses who'd like to reopen.  Will those businesses have to close if they invest in reopening and only half of their customers feel it's safe to return?  Is that the "normal" we want?
 
The vulnerables include Rebbeim and Roshei Yeshiva, teachers and principals, storekeepers and restaurant owners.  How will it change their lives and the future of their mosdos and businesses if we re-open too quickly, before the community accepts the need for safe behaviors?  How many will decide that this might be a good time to withdraw from the public sphere, and close their businesses or retire early, to avoid the danger?  Is that the "normal" we want?

You claim that you’re not seeing these numbers on the streets of Lakewood, where 98% of people are comfortable walking around with no masks and no SD.  This estimate reminds me of the man from Chelm (l’havdil, not calling you a fool) who lost his wallet midblock, but searched for it under the corner streetlamp because the light was better there.  How many people are not on the streets, missing from your calculation, because they're out-of-sight at home, away from the unsafe environment that has been created in the community?   

We need a more accurate estimate of just how many vulnerable people we have in the community, before we cavalierly call for a return to our former normal life.

I’m not advocating for a “forever” quarantine, just that we should stop asking “When can we reopen already?” Rather, the question should be “How can we reopen in such a way that we – the healthy and the vulnerable – can once again become a well-integrated community?”

Part of the answer to that, I think, includes SD and mask-wearing, even by the half of the community who are certain that their own health makes this unnecessary for themselves.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17554
  • Total likes: 14527
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2020, 02:33:01 PM »
I am not sure what actual policy you are advocating for. Are these reasons for a government mandate shutdown for everyone including those who are not as vulnerable? Are you suggesting to businesses that it may not make sense for them to ffully reopen even if they are legally permitted to?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Barryg

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 1683
  • Total likes: 63
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Ohio
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2020, 02:58:01 PM »
Just a simple prediction because this is ddf. The bad news thread will have more good news than bad, just like the good news thread went off track.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1393
  • Total likes: 1692
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2020, 03:35:26 PM »
I am not sure what actual policy you are advocating for. Are these reasons for a government mandate shutdown for everyone including those who are not as vulnerable? Are you suggesting to businesses that it may not make sense for them to ffully reopen even if they are legally permitted to?

1. I would rather keep the government out of the discussion. I certainly agree that there should have been an initial mandatory shutdown, and the people we elected to govern have to juggle different factions, advisors, constituencies in deciding when to end it. But I'm thinking more narrowly about the Jewish communities.

2. I'm not advocating so much for a specific policy, but rather for a change in the way we look at the problem.  That we should automatically include the vulnerable among us when we think about what policies should be in place, and not relegate them to an afterthought.  We should mainstream the vulnerable, to borrow a term. 

3. For example, if my community thought about how to best ensure that the vulnerable adults and elderly would be integrated into the community in the future, I think they would emphasize those methods that have been shown to reduce transmission, namely, mask-wearing and social distancing.

4. I think that many businesses should expect that they can't re-open exactly as before and expect that all will continue as in the past, especially if their customers or clients or employees or bosses were older adults.

5. That's as far as I can think erev Shabbos  :), but look forward to continuing another time.


Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2020, 03:51:08 PM »
I'm not sure what communities you are referring to but most of the main stream ultra orthodox community in ny/nj is back to business as usual and not trying to protect anyone. Go into any store and you'll see for yourself, full of young and old people alike. Generally speaking the communities that overall are  more paranoid about corona, young and old people are nervous. Regular chareidi shuls are not restricting older people or anything like that for the most part. Whether communities were very locked down or not so much at all they all got hit hard. So to assume that in the long run corona will be an issue doesn't Seem realistic. So there is no us or them, everyone is good. While people here sit and stress about corona, you can go outside and look at the street, its full of people, highways are full, stores are full, flights are full.... At this point it seems to appropriate to stay safe stay smart, and just things be.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1393
  • Total likes: 1692
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2020, 04:48:15 PM »
@yaakov35 
"Some men see things as they are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were, and ask why not." (Robert F Kennedy)

Offline Euclid

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 4924
  • Total likes: 6169
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2020, 05:37:12 PM »
I'm not sure what communities you are referring to but most of the main stream ultra orthodox community in ny/nj is back to business as usual and not trying to protect anyone. Go into any store and you'll see for yourself, full of young and old people alike. Generally speaking the communities that overall are  more paranoid about corona, young and old people are nervous. Regular chareidi shuls are not restricting older people or anything like that for the most part. Whether communities were very locked down or not so much at all they all got hit hard. So to assume that in the long run corona will be an issue doesn't Seem realistic. So there is no us or them, everyone is good. While people here sit and stress about corona, you can go outside and look at the street, its full of people, highways are full, stores are full, flights are full.... At this point it seems to appropriate to stay safe stay smart, and just things be.
What does this even mean? Thoughts and prayers?

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7491
  • Total likes: 3970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2020, 12:00:47 AM »
I'm not sure what communities you are referring to but most of the main stream ultra orthodox community in ny/nj is back to business as usual and not trying to protect anyone. Go into any store and you'll see for yourself, full of young and old people alike. Generally speaking the communities that overall are  more paranoid about corona, young and old people are nervous. Regular chareidi shuls are not restricting older people or anything like that for the most part. Whether communities were very locked down or not so much at all they all got hit hard. So to assume that in the long run corona will be an issue doesn't Seem realistic. So there is no us or them, everyone is good. While people here sit and stress about corona, you can go outside and look at the street, its full of people, highways are full, stores are full, flights are full.... At this point it seems to appropriate to stay safe stay smart, and just things be.
Oh really? Do you have any data to back yourself up? Because I have a truckload of data that proves you wrong.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2020, 12:02:14 AM »
Oh really? Do you have any data to back yourself up? Because I have a truckload of data that proves you wrong.
Frum communities? Plz post, thanks

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7491
  • Total likes: 3970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2020, 12:03:36 AM »
Frum communities? Plz post, thanks
Oh the data works differently with frum people? My bad
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17554
  • Total likes: 14527
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2020, 12:04:48 AM »
Frum communities? Plz post, thanks
Do you have any data to back up what you are saying? There are numerous frum communities which did not get hit like NY.

Cleveland
Baltimore
Chicago
Toronto

Do you need more?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67761
  • Total likes: 17203
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2020, 12:04:56 AM »
Frum communities? Plz post, thanks
CLE locked down early. I'm not aware of any fatalities in our community and antibody rates were too low to support a plasma drive.
I'm sure there are many, many more.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7491
  • Total likes: 3970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2020, 12:05:44 AM »
CLE locked down early. I'm not aware of any fatalities in our community and antibody rates were too low to support a plasma drive.
I'm sure there are many, many more.
Baltimore
Passaic
Deal
L.A.
etc.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2020, 12:06:49 AM »
CLE locked down early. I'm not aware of any fatalities in our community and antibody rates were too low to support a plasma drive.
I'm sure there are many, many more.
I clearly said in the ny/nj area. Outside those people have a different dynamic of living.

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2020, 12:08:09 AM »
Do you have any data to back up what you are saying? There are numerous frum communities which did not get hit like NY.

Cleveland
Baltimore
Chicago
Toronto

Do you need more?
???? Did you even read what I posted?

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7491
  • Total likes: 3970
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2020, 12:09:03 AM »
I clearly said in the ny/nj area. Outside those people have a different dynamic of living.
Are you saying locking down and being careful didn't/doesn't affect spread? What does dynamic of living mean? You mean respecting the sanctity of life differently?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17554
  • Total likes: 14527
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2020, 12:09:25 AM »
???? Did you even read what I posted?
Yes. Did you? The only mention of NY NJ was how they are mostly open.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2020, 12:11:26 AM »
Yes. Did you? The only mention of NY NJ was how they are mostly open.
Sorry for the confusion but my whole post was referring to ny/nj area. Outside of those is a totally different ball game

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17554
  • Total likes: 14527
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2020, 12:12:56 AM »
Sorry for the confusion but my whole post was referring to ny/nj area. Outside of those is a totally different ball game
Which communities in NY NJ locked down fully and were hit equally?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yaakov35

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2019
  • Posts: 713
  • Total likes: 162
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: US
Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2020, 12:14:03 AM »
Are you saying locking down and being careful didn't/doesn't affect spread? What does dynamic of living mean? You mean respecting the sanctity of life differently?
What I'm saying is, even communities that were fully locked down and barely reopened now. Teaneck, five towns, and others were still hit pretty bad. Dynamic of living just means overall not davening in shuls with 100s of people, not having 500 person weddings. Just overall not as dense.