Author Topic: The Vulnerables ARE Us  (Read 5370 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2020, 12:15:25 AM »
Dynamic of living just means overall not davening in shuls with 100s of people
Cool story.
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Offline yaakov35

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2020, 12:17:54 AM »
Cool story.
Do i need give specific details of difference in living in ny/nj frum communities and frum communities outside those areas? Pretty sure it's self explanatory

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2020, 12:18:17 AM »
What I'm saying is, even communities that were fully locked down and barely reopened now. Teaneck, five towns, and others were still hit pretty bad. Dynamic of living just means overall not davening in shuls with 100s of people, not having 500 person weddings. Just overall not as dense.
We they hit just as badly? Did it end sooner in those communities? It does seem that all lockdown were too late to prevent everything in NY. What do you think would have been in the other communities had they not locked down at all?

I understand that you decided that anyone who doesn't just accept your made up facts is going for people to die. That does not add any truth to it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2020, 12:19:34 AM »
I think it has close to nothing to do with frum communities. More people from Italy visited NY earlier, so they got hit earlier, both Jew and non-Jew.

NY locked down and stopped things from spiraling further out of control. Other places locked down and stopped the spread before it got anywhere near that level.
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Offline biobook

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2020, 10:41:18 AM »
Slightly shorter version of my OP:
In re-opening, we shouldn't think this means that most of us return to our pre-covid lifestyle, with a few vulnerable people left to stay home.   Rather we need to consider how to re-open such that we include everyone, the healthy and the vulnerable together, in this future normal life.  This is not just for their sake, because the vulnerable people deserve it, but for the sake of all of us – the vulnerable people are too large and too integral a part of our community to conceive of a future that excludes them.

Offline biobook

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2020, 10:41:52 AM »
To paraphrase what I think @yaakov35 has said:
We’ve already done that.  Lakewood, Brooklyn, and Monsey have re-opened in a way that allows both the healthy and the vulnerable to participate in one inclusive society.  I know this, because I look in streets, shuls and stores and see both young and old people together, so clearly nobody is left out.  The reason we’ve been able to do this is because so many of us had covid that we no longer have to worry about that.   

My answer:

1. Your source of evidence is flawed. 

Say you visit a new town, enter the yeshiva, and see a bunch of boys.  Should you conclude “Wow!  I see that no girls are born in this town!”?  Of course not.  The yeshiva is not the place to look for girls, who are probably somewhere else.

You look in a store in Lakewood and see old and young people shopping.  Should you conclude “Everyone feels it’s safe to go shopping here!”?  Of course not.  The people who feel it’s unsafe to go shopping are not going to be in the stores.  Or in the shuls, or on the streets.

Question:  What would be a better to determine how many people in the community feel that it’s unsafe for them to fully participate in this re-opened society?

2. The re-opened communities don't include the vulnerable in a sensible way

You say that many people in the frum communities of NY/NJ have recovered from covid, so it is now safe for the vulnerable people to also return to their pre-covid activities.   I almost agree with you!  There are just two things missing for this to be true:

There must be guards placed around the walls that surround the City of Frum Yidden of Lakewood, to prevent entry by Frum Yidden of Elsewhere, Non-Frum Yidden, and Non-Yidden.  If any of these enter Lakewood, they could inadvertently bring in the virus and infect the vulnerable. 

Also, there should be a hotel just outside the walls of the city, so that anyone who leaves Lakewood has a place to quarantine for 14 days to make sure they don’t bring the virus back.

Hint: This isn't happening.  There are no walls.  There is no enforced quarantine.  And there are reports that cases are still appearing in frum communities.  So the community has not re-opened in a way that makes it safe for the vulnerable to be part of society.

Offline biobook

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2020, 12:35:08 PM »
On second thought (to respond to myself), it seems like Crown Heights is creating at least an imaginary wall around the community, by asking others not to visit, and asking that children from CH associate only with other children from the community. 

https://anash.org/coronavirus-update-33-at-risk-individuals-can-end-isolation/

They do suggest that the vulnerable wear masks, but in my opinion this should occur more widely.

Offline AsherO

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2020, 12:47:51 PM »
On second thought (to respond to myself), it seems like Crown Heights is creating at least an imaginary wall around the community, by asking others not to visit, and asking that children from CH associate only with other children from the community. 

https://anash.org/coronavirus-update-33-at-risk-individuals-can-end-isolation/

They do suggest that the vulnerable wear masks, but in my opinion this should occur more widely.

Masks, smaller congregations, measures of social distancing, and limiting interaction outside the community, are all sliding-scale means of mitigation. The optimal point of each of these for each community is extremely hard to pinpoint, and the only question is to what direction do individuals and/or the collective community lean, when it comes to these mitigations.
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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2020, 12:49:26 PM »
Do you have any data to back up what you are saying? There are numerous frum communities which did not get hit like NY.

Cleveland
Baltimore
Chicago
Toronto

Do you need more?

How many of those communities have multiple "minyan factory" shuls?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2020, 12:51:12 PM »
How many of those communities have multiple "minyan factory" shuls?
How many are needed to be affected the same because of the “dynamic of living”? The communities are smaller but each one of those places has minyan factories
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2020, 12:51:24 PM »
Slightly shorter version of my OP:
In re-opening, we shouldn't think this means that most of us return to our pre-covid lifestyle, with a few vulnerable people left to stay home.   Rather we need to consider how to re-open such that we include everyone, the healthy and the vulnerable together, in this future normal life.  This is not just for their sake, because the vulnerable people deserve it, but for the sake of all of us – the vulnerable people are too large and too integral a part of our community to conceive of a future that excludes them.
You make fair points. But your criticism should be less of the people and more of the leaders. The doctors were saying the whole time that we should be locked down forever and the rabbonim were talking about weddings and talking in shul. The chance to have normal discussions about this went out the window 2 months ago.

Offline yaakov35

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2020, 01:01:26 PM »
How many are needed to be affected the same because of the “dynamic of living”? The communities are smaller but each one of those places has minyan factories
NO frum communities in the world live the way we do In the ny/NJ area, besides maybe Israel.  Density/mingling/weddings/you name it. I have no clue why people are trying to compare other places, when it's incomparable.

Offline Dan

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2020, 01:02:43 PM »
The doctors were saying the whole time that we should be locked down forever
We need a master thread for fake news posts.
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2020, 01:04:42 PM »
We need a master thread for fake news posts.
Dr. Ditchek wasn’t screaming about how outdoor minyanim are incredibly dangerous?

We’ve had them in my community for 6 weeks already and BH there are little to no infections.

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2020, 01:09:42 PM »
Dr. Ditchek wasn’t screaming about how outdoor minyanim are incredibly dangerous?

We’ve had them in my community for 6 weeks already and BH there are little to no infections.
1 doctor is now "The doctors?!?"
And he said it had to be forever that way?!?
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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2020, 01:27:02 PM »
Dr. Ditchek wasn’t screaming about how outdoor minyanim are incredibly dangerous?

We’ve had them in my community for 6 weeks already and BH there are little to no infections.

6 weeks?

Wow. How did you manage that? Abbreviated sefiras haomer? Time machine? They've been around since before Pesach and are still around.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2020, 01:49:52 PM »
How many of those communities have multiple "minyan factory" shuls?
Baltimore has a bunch of minyan factories but every single shul has been closed since the week after Purim.

Outdoor minyanim were only allowed starting a week before Shavous. Even now still only outdoors and it is rare to find someone without a mask.

Bachurim coming from NY/NJ/EY were put into isolation. (Slightly meaningless as there wasnt really anywhere to go)

Schools and yeshivos are closed although 1 school is now opened for two 1.5 hour shifts with strict proctors in place.

Most people did not shop in stores either stocked up early or curbside pickup/ delivery.

Cousins, etc did not play together.

More spread out,  not like Brooklyn were when on your front porch you'll bump into your neighbor.

(Sidenote: I dont understand why any state would have banned curbside pickup? What would that accomplish other than a handful of employees not being I'm contact which as far as I understand wouldn't be an issue as it's the same pool of people and they can take precautions)

I do not know of anyone in the frum community who was seriously sick.
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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2020, 01:54:09 PM »
6 weeks?

Wow. How did you manage that? Abbreviated sefiras haomer? Time machine? They've been around since before Pesach and are still around.
Did you miss where I mentioned my community? :)

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2020, 06:51:21 PM »
Baltimore has a bunch of minyan factories but every single shul has been closed since the week after Purim.

Outdoor minyanim were only allowed starting a week before Shavous. Even now still only outdoors and it is rare to find someone without a mask.

Bachurim coming from NY/NJ/EY were put into isolation. (Slightly meaningless as there wasnt really anywhere to go)

Schools and yeshivos are closed although 1 school is now opened for two 1.5 hour shifts with strict proctors in place.

Most people did not shop in stores either stocked up early or curbside pickup/ delivery.

Cousins, etc did not play together.

More spread out,  not like Brooklyn were when on your front porch you'll bump into your neighbor.

(Sidenote: I dont understand why any state would have banned curbside pickup? What would that accomplish other than a handful of employees not being I'm contact which as far as I understand wouldn't be an issue as it's the same pool of people and they can take precautions)

I do not know of anyone in the frum community who was seriously sick.
I do know one man who unfortunately passed away but contracted the infection in Lakewood just after Purim and didn’t spread it further in Baltimore AFAIK
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Offline biobook

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Re: The Vulnerables ARE Us
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2020, 11:12:59 PM »
Baltimore has a bunch of minyan factories but every single shul has been closed since the week after Purim.

...
I do not know of anyone in the frum community who was seriously sick.
Interesting.  So basically the entire community is still vulnerable to the virus?  Have they discussed any arrangements re: re-opening?