Author Topic: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?  (Read 1951 times)

Offline 12HRS

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Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2020, 01:48:24 PM »
No offense, but the
most Chumradig psak possible is, to just keep 2 days Shabbos.


I would say that a nice big chunk of Dayanim haven't learned the subject thouroly, and some are even clueless.

My Rov spoke with R' Eliyashav on this topic and his attitude was

I spoke to someone who knows good this stuff and he said if you only going for vacation why do wont to put yourself in to it . so the best is avoid being there for shabbes .

Hope he wasn't clueless

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2020, 01:55:37 PM »
I spoke to someone who knows good this stuff and he said if you only going for vacation why do wont to put yourself in to it . so the best is avoid being there for shabbes .
Several Rabonim gave me the same answer about Antarctica and Shabbos.

Others pushed back and argued that we need real answers and a psak halacha. These are questions that existed in the past in Northern Russia and questions that will exist in a future where we travel into space. Saying don't go is taking the easy way out.
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Offline ushdadude

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Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2020, 02:10:39 PM »
Several Rabonim gave me the same answer about Antarctica and Shabbos.

Others pushed back and argued that we need real answers and a psak halacha. These are questions that existed in the past in Northern Russia and questions that will exist in a future where we travel into space. Saying don't go is taking the easy way out.


you raise a good question (maybe spin-off thread?) how would traveling in orbit work? say shema every 15 minutes?
Trolls will always post stupid replies

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2020, 02:29:40 PM »

you raise a good question (maybe spin-off thread?) how would traveling in orbit work? say shema every 15 minutes?
Ilan Ramon kept shabbos based on where he took off as per psak from Chabad rabbi near his training center who he was in touch with.

There will prob be more /less mehadrin options
יש כאן מקום להחמיר
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Offline Dan

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2020, 02:41:25 PM »
Ilan Ramon kept shabbos based on where he took off as per psak from Chabad rabbi near his training center who he was in touch with.

There will prob be more /less mehadrin options
יש כאן מקום להחמיר
Likely based on the same questions as Antarctica:

https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/guest-post-halachic-zmanim-polar-regions-kosher-antarctica-cruise/
https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/trip-notes/trip-notes-antarctica-part-1-buenos-airesplanning-positioning-adventure-lifetime/
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Offline Dan

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2020, 02:42:19 PM »

you raise a good question (maybe spin-off thread?) how would traveling in orbit work? say shema every 15 minutes?
Done. And I hope the ask the question myself one day.
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Offline JuryDuty

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Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2020, 02:51:48 PM »
What many LOR's will say is that Friday is just for d'oraisos which means that you can go swimming and do muktzah

This is the answer I got. I haven't been to Hawaii yet, but if you go through what you actually are allowed to do, it sounds like an amazing vacation day
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Offline Traveler718

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2020, 03:04:35 PM »
My Rav was supportive of me going to Antarctica and meticulously answered all my zman-related questions, but has been very discouraging about going to Hawaii, even unhappy with the option of keeping 2 days l'chumra.

Offline Dan

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2020, 03:16:25 PM »
My Rav was supportive of me going to Antarctica and meticulously answered all my zman-related questions, but has been very discouraging about going to Hawaii, even unhappy with the option of keeping 2 days l'chumra.
Not sure why there would be a difference?
I'd think that Antarctica would be more problematic, had our trip not had the Falklands detour.
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Offline Joel

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Re: Re: Maui Master Thread
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2020, 03:36:18 PM »
Just like many Doctors won't admit they don't know something (in their field) and refer to you to someone else, so do Rabbanim.
It is very easy to take the "machmir" approach.
As I once heard many years ago it doesn't take a "big lamden" to be machmir, rather the opposite.
Knowing this I knew i had to ask someone who is well versed in (specialty) not every day question.
 
And indeed this was his answer told me not to drive and be machmir on d'oraisos
What many LOR's will say is that Friday is just for d'oraisos which means that you can go swimming and do muktzah (tefillin) etc. which are only Rabbinic issues.

Offline Something Fishy

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2020, 03:50:37 PM »
Some relevant posts:

We keep de'oraisas on Friday, so that means that by shkia on Thursday we have to be settled in wherever we will be for shabbos.

Just Friday night/shabbos. But I was told to light candles on Thursday without a Bracha.

Ah, understood. Forgot about the 2 day Shabbos option, hehe. Can I ask what your Rav said to do for Tefillin for the men on Friday?

To address your tefillin question, he told me to wear it and daven like a regular weekday.

Shabbos candles was a more interesting issue - you can't light them on Friday afternoon, but at the same time you must light them for Shabbos! So he told me to light yartzeit candles on Thursday afternoon, and "Lekovod Shabbos Kodesh" over them. Then on Friday afternoon, my wife should cover her eyes and make the beracha. This way, no matter when Shabbos really was, we'd be covered :D.

I’ve done it twice already. Of course it raises some issues, but I got my psak from one of the most well-known and respected dayanim alive today (I don’t know if it’s a good idea to post his name here; feel free to PM if you want to know).
 
Here’s what he said (obviously for informational purposes only; everyone should ask their own LOR):
 
- Keep Shabbos on Saturday, plus keep d’oreisas on Friday (meaning from sundown Thursday). (This is also paskened in Shevet HaLevy as well as other sources)
- D’rabonons could be done, but only if there’s a “need” – not just for the heck of it (for example amira l’akum is fine, but touching muktza just because is not).
- Light >25-hour yartzeit candles at the zman on Thursday without a brocha, but say “l’kovod Shabbos kodesh” on them.
- By the zman Friday cover your eyes and then make the regular brocha on the candles.
- Tefillin, davening, bentching, Kiddush, havdala, etc. should all be done as on a normal Friday and Shabbos.
 
Based on this here are some more data points, all discussed and confirmed with a different (read: easier to access) dayan:
 
- Carrying on the grounds/yard on Friday is allowed, since it’s considered a karmelis.
- Amira l’akum is allowed.
- Dry food (chicken, kugel) could be put onto a blech or hotplate Friday afternoon, as long as the flame or hot plate was already on (either since Thursday or on a timer).
- Wet foods (soup) should be put up Thursday afternoon only.
 
   
Very highly recommended. Both times the long Shabbos was one of the top highlights of our trips. After a week of running around all day seeing and doing amazing things being forced to relax and do nothing for two days is absolute heaven. Take long walks (and even longer naps), read under trees dripping avocados, just let yourself melt into the Hawaiian air.
Finding the right place to stay over Shabbos is vital; a small hotel room isn’t a very good place to klutz around in for two days. This is where a great vacation rental really shines – look hard enough and you could find amazing gems at amazing prices.
I think in your case this would be a great itinerary – run around all week, do some hardcore relaxing for two days, than have a jam-packed Sunday (Road to Hana, BI volcano, Kauai north shore… you get the drift).
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Offline Something Fishy

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2020, 03:52:26 PM »
And from a recent PM discussion I had with a DDFer, whose LOR was a bit at sea:

Quote
It's critical to talk to someone who knows the subject intimately, it's all too easy just to say "no".

Tell him to check  שבט הלוי ח"ג סי' כ"ח וח"ו סי' ל"ד, where he paskens to keep d'oreisas on the safek day, which is Friday in Hawaii.

There's also a good discussion in שו"ת נשמת שבת ח"ז סימן תקכ"ז - same psak. See also the simanim a bit before and after, he discusses all these shailos at length.
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Offline sam28

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Re: When To Keep Shabbos In Hawaii, Antarctica, Svalbard, Or In Orbit?
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2020, 05:47:29 PM »
And from a recent PM discussion I had with a DDFer, whose LOR was a bit at sea:


when i made plans to go . i called him and he said if u dont have to go u should try to avoid it .There's also a good discussion in שו"ת נשמת שבת ח"ז סימן תקכ"ז - same psak