Is Florida less honest than China?

[Mikes@Micro]

Source?

How will anyone be able to know and enforce that people entering the grocery store fit all your qualifications? Are you suggesting that the government enforce that people carry around proof of being negative for COVID in order to go maskless?

I dont understand about wearing a mask when indoors with AC? Outdoors I get. Why couldn't all stores be open the entire time with masks?

Carrying ID might be effective but is not viable under federal law and no way to get enough states on board.

[yuneeq]

I dont understand about wearing a mask when indoors with AC? Outdoors I get. Why couldn't all stores be open the entire time with masks?

My opinion always has been that stores never had to close.
With masks and some social distancing a lot of things could have safely remained open.

[Kobe Bryant]

I wonder if all the posters here advocating libertarian personal freedoms would also be willing to relinquish all government financial support? Including the laws forcing hospitals to provide them with emergency care regardless of payment?

Not a single country in the world operates on this basis.

Libertarians believe in negative rights.
Nothing to relinquish, the government doesn't give us anything. The hard working citizens of this country contribute into a social safety net for the greater good of the country.

[Lurker]

Thanks. Appreciate your interpretation.
May I just add that real stats may not be any more helpful?

Let me start by apologizing. I should have written that response in a less antagonistic way.

You wrote an argument based off of false assumptions, and concluded by insinuating even though your argument proves that there are a substantial amount of people who should be free to do as they wish (with some care) because of the low risk involved, "rational" thought will never be applied because some people will never be satisfied. This is how I understood what you wrote. That conclusion would be fair had the argument used real facts and not made up assumptions. Real stats and facts matter. They are how we make decisions about every aspect of our lives. That doesn't mean that we always interpret the facts correctly, or that we always make the right decisions, but they most definitely matter.

The vast majority of time may not cause damage. What about the number of times drunk people drive (When leaving A how often do they not make it to B)

You said they probably hit someone 100% of the time. Now we're moving the goalposts to they don't get to their destinations, which also doesn't happen the vast majority of the time. Replacing false assumptions with more false assumptions doesn't help the argument.

I agree. I have no clue why NY banned this. Was just saying this to amplify the argument. 

Sorry, I don't understand this. You used a false premise you agree isn't truthful to amplify an argument based on false assumptions.

But if that could be done do you think it wouldn't help?

If what could be done? If someone tests negative, is asymptomatic, and is careful about the contact he has with others, he should be able to move about freely? How is this any different from the reality on the ground? As long as social distancing and masks are used (ie. careful about the contact), people can do most anything. The fact of the matter is, people are not being careful. If you need proof, look at any news site, right, left, or center, and look at the pictures of hundreds of thousands of people not social distancing or wearing masks. That's where the argument really begins: at what point is it the government's job to ensure that those opportunities for spreading infection are limited by closing things down? And that is where the drunk driving analogies come into play.

[Lurker]

I dont understand about wearing a mask when indoors with AC? Outdoors I get. Why couldn't all stores be open the entire time with masks?

For a few reasons. First, because in the beginning they had no idea what they were dealing with and how it was spreading. Second, because they didn't have masks for everyone, leading the CDC to call masks useless and discouraging people from using them (possibly to save the supply for the medical workers). Third, because masks themselves aren't foolproof, and the density in any given indoor area can still lead to spreading of the virus, even if everyone is wearing masks.

That said, I agree with @yuneeq that virtually all stores should have the ability to open if conditions of occupancy limits and masks are strictly enforced. That doesn't include places where wearing a mask isn't possible, like a bar or dine-in establishment.

[PlatinumGuy]

Libertarians believe in negative rights.
Nothing to relinquish, the government doesn't give us anything. The hard working citizens of this country contribute into a social safety net for the greater good of the country.

It's the government that compels people to pay taxes and redistributes money to those who don't want to work. In your libertarian nirvana, the government can't compel the rich to pay taxes, and there is no social safety net for the poor. Good luck if you think the entire country is collectively going to donate 20-40% of their income & capital gains to provide healthcare, food stamps, gov't back mortgages, and a plethora of other benefits

[Proisrael]

It's the government that compels people to pay taxes and redistributes money to those who don't want to work. In your libertarian nirvana, the government can't compel the rich to pay taxes, and there is no social safety net for the poor. Good luck if you think the entire country is collectively going to donate 20-40% of their income & capital gains to provide healthcare, food stamps, gov't back mortgages, and a plethora of other benefits

Did companies offer healthcare to employees before it was mandatory? How many people are on Food Stamps because they dont want to work? Both extremes are negative and you need somewhere in the middle but giving everything for free is not the answer.

[PlatinumGuy]

https://twitter.com/georebekah/status/1275539491034402821?s=21

[Lurker]

Y'all gonna be hearing a whole lot about FL for the next while. A few things I'm looking out for:
- LTCF misreporting numbers, or not reporting at all
- LTCF avoiding testing patients, especially those in palliative care
- Migrant communities not being counted (read illegal immigrants)
- Deaths being attributed to other comorbidities (see the Hep C deaths which have increased with no flags raised)
- Cases and deaths for part-year residents being attributed to other states

If people want motives, it's all about those Benjamins. Tourism is a huge driver of the local economy. LTCFs are, as well. The RNC moved to FL, and the NBA will be playing all of their games in Orlando. The second Presidential debate was just moved to FL. That's all short-term. By keeping the restrictions low, the state is presenting itself as long-term alternative to conservatives and libertarians living in states with more prohibitive restrictions.

If the manipulation of these numbers is bound to come out, why take the risks? In the short-term, they're betting on it not coming out until after the election in November. Being a swing state, presenting successful Republican leadership mirroring Trump's overall virus approach gives a solid reason to vote Trump. In the long-term, DeSantis isn't up for reelection until Nov '22. If keeping things open makes the economic recovery easier, the gamble is people will focus on how well they are doing in 2022 vs the deaths of 2020.

*these are the ramblings of my own mind. I'm wrong more often than I am right.

[Kobe Bryant]

I wonder if all the posters here advocating libertarian personal freedoms would also be willing to relinquish all government financial support? Including the laws forcing hospitals to provide them with emergency care regardless of payment?

Not a single country in the world operates on this basis.

Libertarians believe in negative rights.
Nothing to relinquish, the government doesn't give us anything. The hard working citizens of this country contribute into a social safety net for the greater good of the country.

It's the government that compels people to pay taxes and redistributes money to those who don't want to work. In your libertarian nirvana, the government can't compel the rich to pay taxes, and there is no social safety net for the poor. Good luck if you think the entire country is collectively going to donate 20-40% of their income & capital gains to provide healthcare, food stamps, gov't back mortgages, and a plethora of other benefits

FTT
Following your logic, we wouldn't have to relinquish government financial support.
Government doesn't produce any goods or services, all they do is redistribute!

[yaakov35]

14 day quarantine is official.

[Lurker]

5500+ new cases for FL yesterday, still no talk of statewide restrictions. Local restrictions are being enforced. A bar in Orlando was shut down after 50% of the people who visited were found to be infected. Also, Miami hospitals have seen a 101% increase in Covid hospitalizations in the last week.

[avromie7]

5500+ new cases for FL yesterday, still no talk of statewide restrictions. Local restrictions are being enforced. A bar in Orlando was shut down after 50% of the people who visited were found to be infected. Also, Miami hospitals have seen a 101% increase in Covid hospitalizations in the last week.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, there's good reason to allow urban and rural areas to have different rules.

[cgr]

14 day quarantine is official.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1275826166910369792?s=19

[Lurker]

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, there's good reason to allow urban and rural areas to have different rules.

I agree with you for the most part, but I do think some things need to be more universal.

[avromie7]

I agree with you for the most part, but I do think some things need to be more universal.

I think the way to do that should be guidance from the state.

[Naftuli19]

5500+ new cases for FL yesterday, still no talk of statewide restrictions. Local restrictions are being enforced. A bar in Orlando was shut down after 50% of the people who visited were found to be infected. Also, Miami hospitals have seen a 101% increase in Covid hospitalizations in the last week.

Are death rates up significantly too?

[Lurker]

Are death rates up significantly too?

Why would they be?

[Naftuli19]

Why would they be?

Spike in cases

[Lurker]

Spike in cases

1) Average time from confirmed positive to death is 30 days.
2) More testing means the rate will go down, not up. Total deaths may go up, but the rate will decrease.
3) Early detection will hopefully lead to fewer deaths.
4) Better treatment protocols will hopefully lead to fewer deaths.