Author Topic: Is Florida less honest than China?  (Read 35599 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #220 on: July 06, 2020, 12:32:51 PM »
Moving this back to Florida... it's Monday, coming off a holiday weekend where a number of testing sites were closed, and FL is reporting 6336 new cases. Looks like it may be another record setting week.

There is still no talk of moving the state back to Phase 1. Here are the current guidelines for Phase 2: https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/plan-for-floridas-recovery/
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #221 on: July 06, 2020, 12:38:44 PM »
Full disclaimer: My Daas Torah says that many fewer ppl would have died had we kept shuls open straight through and had the zchus of tefillah bitzibur bbeis midrash on our side. And that it is terrible hashkafa to believe that anyone was harmed from going to shul.

I know that it's not popular opinion on here, and I'm talking to those whose rabbanim ended thinking they should be closed, are you suggesting they were wrong at that time? Don't you trust your rav is supposed to make any and all decisions and has a special siyatta dishmaya in klal matters?

A Rov of a shul in my neighborhood says this as well and he says he investigated the reports of doctors and nurses saying that Jewish patients don’t deserve treatment because they are doing it to themselves by praying and making weddings (aiva) and he says they were bogus so it was an avla that minyanim we’re stopped for aiva. Yet I heard some very reliable first hand reports at least from within Jersey Shore UMC that that was indeed what what being said so there’s a lot of different info and viewpoints here.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #222 on: July 06, 2020, 01:01:21 PM »
Every Rav that didn't say he was mistaken for not closing earlier, closed at the perfect time if that's what his daas Torah dictated as the right time.
There's allowed to be amchlokes.
The notion that there was 1 "right time" can only be true if you're going solely based on medical experts. Then it's black and white. Either it was spreading and dangerous or not.
But we go with daas torah, and every daas torah is allowed to have his opinion of when it is necessary or not.
They decided in early March the data didn't call for it, and as more data came out, some decided to close then. And some still didn't think it was warranted until a week later. And some thought it was never warranted.
Eilu Va'Eilu Divrei...

Interesting machlokes - How many deaths does a kehilla have to have for it to become necessary to close? Some say a few people dying is okay, others say anything less than a few dozen is fine, while others hold even one death is an issue.
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Offline yelped

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #223 on: July 06, 2020, 01:04:57 PM »
@Eb228 Can you please bring your source for the definition of Daas Torah?

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #224 on: July 06, 2020, 01:05:58 PM »
@Eb228 Can you please bring your source for the definition of Daas Torah?

Just translate the words...

Offline yelped

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #225 on: July 06, 2020, 01:08:14 PM »
Just translate the words...
Thank you.  ::)

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #226 on: July 06, 2020, 01:08:37 PM »
Just translate the words...
Where do the words come from?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #227 on: July 06, 2020, 01:11:35 PM »
@Eb228 Can you please bring your source for the definition of Daas Torah?
Is this really so difficult? There's a reason the most difficult shailos any gadol gets are life and death shailos, why don't we just leave it up to the doctors?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #228 on: July 06, 2020, 01:12:14 PM »
Just translate the words...

A few questions I'm curious what you believe:

Does everyone who ever learned Torah have daas torah? If not, then who is considered daas torah?
Those that do have daas torah, is everything they say daas torah?
Can daas torah ever make a mistake, whether through not getting all the facts, or perhaps if Hashem decides a mageifah should kill many people, He may blind the daas torah from making the correct decision?
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #229 on: July 06, 2020, 01:15:37 PM »
A few questions I'm curious what you believe:

Does everyone who ever learned Torah have daas torah? If not, then who is considered daas torah?
Those that do have daas torah, is everything they say daas torah?
Can daas torah ever make a mistake, whether through not getting all the facts, or perhaps if Hashem decides a mageifah should kill many people, He may blind the daas torah from making the correct decision?
None of this means you should be making your own decisions instead of asking your rabbi.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #230 on: July 06, 2020, 01:19:46 PM »
A few questions I'm curious what you believe:

Does everyone who ever learned Torah have daas torah? If not, then who is considered daas torah?
Those that do have daas torah, is everything they say daas torah?
Can daas torah ever make a mistake, whether through not getting all the facts, or perhaps if Hashem decides a mageifah should kill many people, He may blind the daas torah from making the correct decision?

What I believe is irrelevant, I can only tell you what I heard from daas torah on this. (Others daas torah may vary)

You're first q I don't think is serious, so I'll skip
The second q, absolutely. Sichas talmidei chachamim tzrichen limud
Third q has 2 parts. 1st part (making mistakes) I can't answer fully, I need to ask my rebbe.
2 nd part, absolutely. We find examples of this in Nach already.
My RY once didn't agree with something from another of the gedolei hador that he had said on many occasions has Ruach Hakodesh.
When asked how can he be mistaken then, he said "Ruach Hakodesh is not a 24/7 faucet". Hashem let him be fed wrong facts, I don't know why.

Offline yelped

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #231 on: July 06, 2020, 01:29:37 PM »
What I believe is irrelevant, I can only tell you what I heard from daas torah on this. (Others daas torah may vary)

You're first q I don't think is serious, so I'll skip
The second q, absolutely. Sichas talmidei chachamim tzrichen limud
Third q has 2 parts. 1st part (making mistakes) I can't answer fully, I need to ask my rebbe.
2 nd part, absolutely. We find examples of this in Nach already.
My RY once didn't agree with something from another of the gedolei hador that he had said on many occasions has Ruach Hakodesh.
When asked how can he be mistaken then, he said "Ruach Hakodesh is not a 24/7 faucet". Hashem let him be fed wrong facts, I don't know why.
So basically you are making a statement without backing it up.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #232 on: July 06, 2020, 01:33:41 PM »
So basically you are making a statement without backing it up.
When you find a source that verapo yerapei replaces asking your rabbi for the torahs opinion of right and wrong we can have a discussion.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #233 on: July 06, 2020, 01:38:27 PM »
So basically you are making a statement without backing it up.

Huh? Which statment?

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #234 on: July 06, 2020, 01:57:03 PM »
Where do the words come from?
Bump
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #235 on: July 06, 2020, 01:58:53 PM »

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #236 on: July 06, 2020, 02:02:57 PM »
Chazi ma diber ama
Seriously? (don't take this to mean that I'm not machsiv daas torah, but something you hold as such a central tenet is because you heard it on the street?)

And the quote is "pok chazi mai ama davar" פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר
And davar means do, not speak
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 02:20:15 PM by Ergel »
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #237 on: July 06, 2020, 03:22:19 PM »
None of this means you should be making your own decisions instead of asking your rabbi.

That's fine, I never implied otherwise. I just find it hard to believe that Rabbonim across the board missed all the warning signs of corona and somehow that's considered daas torah. Daas torah to me is when they got the facts clear and decided to close the shuls. Reality didn't change in the weeks before their decision, their knowledge of reality did.
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Online aygart

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #238 on: July 06, 2020, 03:30:15 PM »
Varapeh gives us the rav the right to take a doctors opinion into account,
Did you just make this pshat up on your own or do you have a source that says this?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #239 on: July 06, 2020, 03:30:34 PM »
Which thread is this?
Only on DDF does 24/6 mean 24/5/half/half