Author Topic: Is Florida less honest than China?  (Read 35573 times)

Offline S209

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #240 on: July 06, 2020, 03:35:00 PM »
That's fine, I never implied otherwise. I just find it hard to believe that Rabbonim across the board missed all the warning signs of corona and somehow that's considered daas torah. Daas torah to me is when they got the facts clear and decided to close the shuls. Reality didn't change in the weeks before their decision, their knowledge of reality did.
To be fair there were (a minority of) doctors who took equally long to wake up. In Lakewood specifically, once the most prominent pediatrician finally publicly acknowledged the reality a large majority of the Rabbanim acted swiftly (within a day or two).
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #241 on: July 06, 2020, 03:35:20 PM »
Which thread is this?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #242 on: July 06, 2020, 03:37:30 PM »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to...

:)
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #243 on: July 06, 2020, 03:38:26 PM »
To be fair there were (a minority of) doctors who took equally long to wake up. In Lakewood specifically, once the most prominent pediatrician finally publicly acknowledged the reality a large majority of the Rabbanim acted swiftly (within a day or two).

You're not disagreeing, as I said, once they got the facts clear they did the correct thing. I gave up the blame game a while back.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #244 on: July 06, 2020, 03:39:32 PM »
What I believe is irrelevant, I can only tell you what I heard from daas torah on this. (Others daas torah may vary)

You're first q I don't think is serious, so I'll skip

What you believe is definitely relevant, as you are calling people kofrim and not listening to daas torah based on your beliefs of what those terms mean. My question was in fact serious - what do you consider daas torah? Shul rov? Rosh yeshiva? Gadol hador? It makes a difference in understanding what you are trying to say.


Quote
The second q, absolutely. Sichas talmidei chachamim tzrichen limud
Third q has 2 parts. 1st part (making mistakes) I can't answer fully, I need to ask my rebbe.
2 nd part, absolutely. We find examples of this in Nach already.
My RY once didn't agree with something from another of the gedolei hador that he had said on many occasions has Ruach Hakodesh.
When asked how can he be mistaken then, he said "Ruach Hakodesh is not a 24/7 faucet". Hashem let him be fed wrong facts, I don't know why.

So perhaps people aren't kofrim if they see pretty clearly that rabbonim made an error, or that they were blinded by Hashem. You don't need to resort to eilu ve'eilu, it's fine is Hashem didn't want daas torah to be correct in retrospect.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #245 on: July 06, 2020, 03:39:35 PM »
:)
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #246 on: July 06, 2020, 04:11:04 PM »
What you believe is definitely relevant, as you are calling people kofrim and not listening to daas torah based on your beliefs of what those terms mean. My question was in fact serious - what do you consider daas torah? Shul rov? Rosh yeshiva? Gadol hador? It makes a difference in understanding what you are trying to say.


So perhaps people aren't kofrim if they see pretty clearly that rabbonim made an error, or that they were blinded by Hashem. You don't need to resort to eilu ve'eilu, it's fine is Hashem didn't want daas torah to be correct in retrospect.
IMO, the term Daas Torah is overused and incorrectly used to mean absolute knowledge.

I believe the correct way to go about this is to ask a Rov - any Rov, whether it's the Shul Rov, RY, or Gadol Hador. It is our responsibility to ask a Rov, it's the Rov's responsibility to make sure he doesn't answer questions above his "pay grade".

I believe the point he was calling kefira was saying we should listen to doctors over rabbanim. We should listen to what the rabbanim tell us based on the doctors.

I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #247 on: July 06, 2020, 04:14:24 PM »
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.
Not really but not for this religion thread.
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Offline S209

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #248 on: July 06, 2020, 04:18:44 PM »
IMO, the term Daas Torah is overused and incorrectly used to mean absolute knowledge.

I believe the correct way to go about this is to ask a Rov - any Rov, whether it's the Shul Rov, RY, or Gadol Hador. It is our responsibility to ask a Rov, it's the Rov's responsibility to make sure he doesn't answer questions above his "pay grade".

I believe the point he was calling kefira was saying we should listen to doctors over rabbanim. We should listen to what the rabbanim tell us based on the doctors.


This is key. I agree with most of your post. What was wrong was when some (a small amount, not most) Rabbanim didn’t even consult with doctors but relied totally on hergesh. That’s against our mesorah and Halacha.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #249 on: July 06, 2020, 04:20:20 PM »
So perhaps people aren't kofrim if they see pretty clearly that rabbonim made an error, or that they were blinded by Hashem. You don't need to resort to eilu ve'eilu, it's fine is Hashem didn't want daas torah to be correct in retrospect.

For the record, this is what I suggested may be Kefirah, not someone saying some rabbanim were wrong, when some themselves said they were

IMO, and this may not be popular, any rov who thinks they should have the final say on medical issues doesn't deserve the title. V'rapoh y'rapeh isn't talking about rabbonim.

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #250 on: July 06, 2020, 04:24:21 PM »
Did you just make this pshat up on your own or do you have a source that says this?

If you don't like the most basic pshat, here's the Even Ezra saying we can't listen to doctors at all on Corona

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #251 on: July 06, 2020, 04:25:00 PM »
For the record, this is what I suggested may be Kefirah, not someone saying some rabbanim were wrong, when some themselves said they were

but you still did not explain what you think may be kefira about it or your source for saying so.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #252 on: July 06, 2020, 04:26:21 PM »
I believe the point he was calling kefira was saying we should listen to doctors over rabbanim. We should listen to what the rabbanim tell us based on the doctors.
For the record, this is what I suggested may be Kefirah, not someone saying some rabbanim were wrong, when some themselves said they were
IMO, and this may not be popular, any rov who thinks they should have the final say on medical issues doesn't deserve the title. V'rapoh y'rapeh isn't talking about rabbonim.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #253 on: July 06, 2020, 04:26:56 PM »
If you don't like the most basic pshat, here's the Even Ezra saying we can't listen to doctors at all on Corona
So you would recommend someone not to go to a doctor for cancer treatment?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #254 on: July 06, 2020, 04:28:00 PM »
This is key. I agree with most of your post. What was wrong was when some (a small amount, not most) Rabbanim didn’t even consult with doctors but relied totally on hergesh. That’s against our mesorah and Halacha.
I'm not getting into a discussion about specifics; but assuming what you said is true, that's the Rov's responsibility and he shoulders the consequences.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #255 on: July 06, 2020, 04:31:58 PM »
but you still did not explain what you think may be kefira about it or your source for saying so.

Here's a good Starting point
https://torasavigdor.org/chanuka-hyrcanus-downfall/

Heres an excerpt, but it's kdai to read the whole thing


Questioner: We are not against the gedolim but the gedolim, they are busy sitting and learning Torah. The political manhigim also know something that’s going on in the world. We cannot just trust the gedolim, we listen to the gedolim all the time, but we have a little political leaders also and we have to listen to them together.

Rav Miller: Well, to explain this to you I have to explain –

Questioner: The goyim are not going according to the daas of the gedolim or the daas Torah. We need the other side also.

Rav Miller: Which other side?

Questioner: Not daas Torah, because the goyim are not learning what is daas Torah. The political leader, he can know the other side.

Rav Miller: So you’re bringing a proof from goyim?

Questioner: You cannot just trust Ruach Hakodesh from gedolim.

Rav Miller: Yes, we do. That’s a statement that cannot pass unchallenged. It’s a difference between being a Jew and a non-Jew. A Jew listens to gedolim. That’s all it is. If you don’t listen to gedolim, you’re not a Jew. There’s no two ways about it. There’s no question on it. You can’t point out instances to prove that you shouldn’t listen to gedolim. Because I can explain that the gedolim were right. Because, that’s a principle of Torah; you must listen to gedolim. If you don’t listen to gedolim, you don’t belong here. You belong in a Temple in “Beth Hakisey Rodef Shalom!”

It’s only one question. Do we obey the shulchan aruch, do we obey the gemara, do we obey the Torah? And all the sources tell us that our leaders are only the gedolim. Not Ben Gurion,and not Golda Meir, not apikorsim, not kofrim, not ochlei treifos. We only believe in gedolim. And not in little rabbis, in public speakers, in radio speakers, in television speakers, not in synagogue rabbis. We don’t believe in anybody except the great chachmei HaTorah and that is a principle on which our whole Torah stands. If you don’t want to accept it, you don’t have to, but you don’t belong here, that’s all.

Questioner: We don’t say that we don’t accept it. But ככל אשר יורוך is referring to politics also?

Rav Miller: Politics, certainly! Everything! Everything is Torah.

Questioner: That’s right but when you are surrounded in work that is not Torah, over there you cannot just quote the Torah, we cannot go that way.

Rav Miller: So if you say that, you’re against Torah.

Questioner: I’m not against Torah.

Rav Miller: You’re against Torah! Torah means you must obey the gedolei Yisroel, even in where you should live. If they tell you where to move you have to obey them. That’s Torah. It’s a p’sak. And, if you say I’ll listen to them in this and not in this, so it means that you’re choosing. Your discretion is what guides you, and this cannot be.


Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #256 on: July 06, 2020, 04:32:46 PM »
So you would recommend someone not to go to a doctor for cancer treatment?

Never said we pasken like that

Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #257 on: July 06, 2020, 04:33:14 PM »
I'm not getting into a discussion about specifics; but assuming what you said is true, that's the Rov's responsibility and he shoulders the consequences.
Do consequences include apologizing if he was wrong?

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #258 on: July 06, 2020, 04:34:55 PM »
https://torasavigdor.org/chanuka-hyrcanus-downfall/

And here is the most relative point

Question: Torah gives reshus for a doctor to perform medical work מכאן שנתן רשות לרופא לרפאות – so I had once an argument with a learned man and he said that as far as the chachamim, the gedolei had or – he told me like this, this was his argument – he said, “I would go along with them, I would accept their opinion in religious matters. But when it comes let’s say to sickness, I’d draw the line there. The Torah gave the doctors the reshut to heal.” So it’s the same with politics, don’t you think?

Rav Miller: He’s an apikores; he’s a kofer b’Hashem. Because Hashem said you have to listen in everything to the gedolim. Only, they’re the ones to tell you ורפא ירפא – they tell you to go to a doctor.

So there’s no question about drawing a line. If the gadol tells you not to go to a doctor, then you don’t go. He won’t tell you that because Torah says that you should go. But there’s no such thing as drawing lines, because what a gadol tells you, that’s our lives.

Now, a real gadol is very careful what he does and what he doesn’t tell you. Understand that. And that’s why on many things they don’t say because they have not yet found it necessary to formulate a policy. But don’t think that there are areas where a gadol has a right to say and areas where he doesn’t have a right to say. A gadol, a great man has a right to say on everything.

Now this has to be hammered into our heads over and over again, for years and years until we get it into our heads. If we want to succeed in our lives, not only as Jews, if we want to succeed as human beings, we have to take guidance from people who are competent. And who is competent for the Jewish nation? The gedolei Yisroel.

Now, I know my audience. Not everybody here is soaked, steeped in Torah, and it will take many years to get this across. Because people come from the street with the street ideas that rabbis should take care of rabbi business. Outside of rabbi business they have nothing to say. It’ll take years and years, like I said, before we hammer this into their heads that there’s no such thing. The Torah covers every phase of life and therefore in everything we do, if we can have guidance, we should seek it.

 

Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #259 on: July 06, 2020, 04:35:31 PM »
If you don't like the most basic pshat, here's the Even Ezra saying we can't listen to doctors at all on Corona
This Ibin Ezra was written well before internal medicine gained widespread expertise/acceptance.