Author Topic: Is Florida less honest than China?  (Read 36230 times)

Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2020, 04:16:33 PM »
Mods I think we need a thread split

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2020, 04:17:11 PM »
If they need to they will but only once they reach a certain threshold where the liability is more than gain.

Reports of diversion may not be an indicator that beds are full rather they have no ER staff available for intake.

Why were the requests being denied and who was denying?

Quote
author=yaakov35 link=topic=117649.msg2281169#msg2281169 date=1592942692]
Hospital systems in the USA are always running full, so doesn't take much to get overwhelmed. But there was never a shortage of beds.
[

Looks like we agree
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Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2020, 04:19:05 PM »
[

Looks like we agree
How are you differentiating between an overwhelmed staff and a bed shortage? If anything, the former is exponentially worse.

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2020, 04:20:13 PM »
I wonder if all the posters here advocating libertarian personal freedoms would also be willing to relinquish all government financial support? Including the laws forcing hospitals to provide them with emergency care regardless of payment?

Not a single country in the world operates on this basis.
True but they dont ban people from drinking big sodas. We agree there is a line.


There was no liability. NY issues EOs exempting all healthcare from liability suits.
Not referring specifically to lawsuits. They cant literally take in patients and make them wait. PR reasons, loss of reputation, maybe concseince?
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2020, 04:20:35 PM »
How is the virus similar?

You can't smoke indoors, but you can walk into the same business while sick with the virus without a mask.
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Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2020, 04:24:16 PM »
How are you differentiating between an overwhelmed staff and a bed shortage? If anything, the former is exponentially worse.
Yes they are both bad but it seems like they prepared properly  and neither should really have been a problem.

They could have sent patients to the empty temporary hospitals? Did they do massive renovations at the javits center, shor yoshuv only to not staff them with doctors?
 
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Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2020, 04:28:51 PM »
You can't smoke indoors, but you can walk into the same business while sick with the virus without a mask.
I agree you shouldn't be able to walk into a business while you are known to be sick EVEN WITH A MASK. But that's not the rules that were made.

An ideal scenario would be to test everyone regularly, contact trace every sick person and contain but that is not legal or feasible on a large scale.

Curbside pickup with a mask with no chazakah of health has a possibility of infecting someone. Not actively hurting like smoking indoors...
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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2020, 04:47:01 PM »
I agree you shouldn't be able to walk into a business while you are known to be sick EVEN WITH A MASK. But that's not the rules that were made.

An ideal scenario would be to test everyone regularly, contact trace every sick person and contain but that is not legal or feasible on a large scale.

Curbside pickup with a mask with no chazakah of health has a possibility of infecting someone. Not actively hurting like smoking indoors...

There's no chazaka of getting lung cancer just because you were once in a bar where someone smoked, either.

Laws are made to protect the masses by reducing their risk. Masks reduce risk. Keeping businesses with a track record of spreading infection open, like bars and clubs, increases risk. Do I have to walk into a bar? No. But if the state tells me I can keep the bar I own open, my landlord and distributors are going to want their money, so I'll be pressured to open to avoid financial ruin. My opening forces my employees to choose between taking risk or being out of a job. It also encourages those who may not be aware of the risks to step inside, exposing them to an avoidable higher-risk situation. Yes, they are there by their own free will, which is their right, but how many of the people in my bar are going to work the next day? How many have essential public facing jobs, maybe some cashiers, a delivery driver, a public transit employee or two? How many have jobs in other places of high-risk spread, like another bar or a meat packing plant?

If you doubt my little example, it's not fiction. This has been playing out in GA, FL, TX, and AZ for the last 6 weeks. Now where do we draw the line on the government's role in reducing spread and keeping people safe?
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2020, 04:57:58 PM »
There's no chazaka of getting lung cancer just because you were once in a bar where someone smoked, either.

Laws are made to protect the masses by reducing their risk. Masks reduce risk. Keeping businesses with a track record of spreading infection open, like bars and clubs, increases risk. Do I have to walk into a bar? No. But if the state tells me I can keep the bar I own open, my landlord and distributors are going to want their money, so I'll be pressured to open to avoid financial ruin. My opening forces my employees to choose between taking risk or being out of a job. It also encourages those who may not be aware of the risks to step inside, exposing them to an avoidable higher-risk situation. Yes, they are there by their own free will, which is their right, but how many of the people in my bar are going to work the next day? How many have essential public facing jobs, maybe some cashiers, a delivery driver, a public transit employee or two? How many have jobs in other places of high-risk spread, like another bar or a meat packing plant?

If you doubt my little example, it's not fiction. This has been playing out in GA, FL, TX, and AZ for the last 6 weeks. Now where do we draw the line on the government's role in reducing spread and keeping people safe?
I believe this discussion came up a few weeks ago and my response was to limit government to at most
1) Make sure the healthcare system doesn't get overwhelmed
2) Protect high risk people and make it safe for them to do what they need to survive (a possible example would be to require masks in grocery stores)

I don't think the government should tell me I can't feed my family because it makes you happy.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2020, 05:14:44 PM »
I believe this discussion came up a few weeks ago and my response was to limit government to at most
1) Make sure the healthcare system doesn't get overwhelmed
2) Protect high risk people and make it safe for them to do what they need to survive (a possible example would be to require masks in grocery stores)

I don't think the government should tell me I can't feed my family because it makes you happy.

A few points on this. First, it's not about making me happy, it's about public health and safety. Second, everyone is high-risk for getting sick. You mean high-risk for death, which is the absolute worst outcome of many bad outcomes. Third, the healthcare industry is a private industry. Why should government make an exception and meddle in these private businesses and not others?

At the end of the day, we live in a democracy, where the people get to vote on which corrupt politician gets to make the rules. You want less government oversight, either vote in a government that fits your worldview, or move to a place where people think like you do. My views on what government should or shouldn't do don't change what the law says government has the right to do.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2020, 06:34:27 PM »
We should legalize drunk driving.

Let's go through the excuses:
-I have a personal right to drive drunk, the government should not interfere with my right.
-Sure, driving drunk may kill myself, but that's my problem, no one else!
-If you are concerned with me driving drunk, get off the road.
-I may kill someone from driving drunk, but that's not my problem.
-It's much more enjoyable to drive drunk than to drive sober.
-The odds that a typical driver will die from a drunk driver isn't even that high. Drunk driving laws are so draconian.
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Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2020, 06:43:10 PM »
We should legalize drunk driving.

Let's go through the excuses:
-I have a personal right to drive drunk, the government should not interfere with my right.
-Sure, driving drunk may kill myself, but that's my problem, no one else!
-If you are concerned with me driving drunk, get off the road.
-I may kill someone from driving drunk, but that's not my problem.
-It's much more enjoyable to drive drunk than to drive sober.
-The odds that a typical driver will die from a drunk driver isn't even that high. Drunk driving laws are so draconian.

The chance that the drunk driver will hit someone else is probably  close to 100.

The chances that a sick person will affect others with minimal contact (ie curbside pickup) is probably also pretty bigh.

What are the chances that someone who
 1) recently tested negative 2) has no symptoms 3) is careful about who he comes in contact with -
Will infect others?

But you can never satisfy all the people all the time

Don't worry, not upset at you at all, just can't stand these annoying politicians.

No
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2020, 06:44:31 PM »
We should legalize drunk driving.

Let's go through the excuses:
-I have a personal right to drive drunk, the government should not interfere with my right.
-Sure, driving drunk may kill myself, but that's my problem, no one else!
-If you are concerned with me driving drunk, get off the road.
-I may kill someone from driving drunk, but that's not my problem.
-It's much more enjoyable to drive drunk than to drive sober.
-The odds that a typical driver will die from a drunk driver isn't even that high. Drunk driving laws are so draconian.
Bad analogy, more accurate would be to make driving illegal because some people drive drunk.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2020, 06:57:47 PM »
The chance that the drunk driver will hit someone else is probably  close to 100.

Source?

Quote
The chances that a sick person will affect others with minimal contact (ie curbside pickup) is probably also pretty bigh.

What are the chances that someone who
 1) recently tested negative 2) has no symptoms 3) is careful about who he comes in contact with -
Will infect others?

How will anyone be able to know and enforce that people entering the grocery store fit all your qualifications? Are you suggesting that the government enforce that people carry around proof of being negative for COVID in order to go maskless?
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2020, 06:58:26 PM »
Bad analogy, more accurate would be to make driving illegal because some people drive drunk.

No, it's actually a perfect analogy.

Walking into store = permitted
Driving = permitted
Walking into store unsafely (without a mask) = illegal (or should be)
Driving unsafely (drunk) = illegal

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Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2020, 07:04:45 PM »

Walking into store = permitted
Driving = permitted
Walking into store unsafely (while sick with COVID) = illegal (or should be)
Driving unsafely (drunk) = illegal
This would be more accurate.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2020, 07:05:58 PM »
How will anyone be able to know and enforce that people entering the grocery store fit all your qualifications? Are you suggesting that the government enforce that people carry around proof of being negative for COVID in order to go maskless?
Are you suggesting everyone be required to take a breathalyzer before getting behind the wheel?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2020, 07:11:46 PM »
This would be more accurate.

Every person that walks into a store may be sick with COVID. Making everyone wear a mask is simpler than forcing everyone to prove their immunity. If you have an idea that will keepg everyone safe in a more convenient manner, I'm all for it.

Are you suggesting everyone be required to take a breathalyzer before getting behind the wheel?

If NY found 400k drunk drivers in the last few months, and drunk driving became contagious, and there was no better way to weed out the drunk drivers, I would be agreeable to that solution.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2020, 07:24:48 PM »
The chance that the drunk driver will hit someone else is probably  close to 100.

Nope, sorry. Absolute garbage. The vast majority of the time a car is operated by a person under the influence, nothing happens. They cause absolutely no damage.

The chances that a sick person will affect others with minimal contact (ie curbside pickup) is probably also pretty bigh.

Again, nope, sorry. Based on everything we know about how spread works, curbside delivery where the drivers stay in their cars with the doors and windows closed, and the infected person puts the items in their trunks, should yield very few infections. If the drivers wipe down the surfaces and items touched by the infected person, that number goes even lower.

What are the chances that someone who
 1) recently tested negative 2) has no symptoms 3) is careful about who he comes in contact with -
Will infect others?

No clue. Considering 1) the amount of false negatives, 2) the amount of asymptomatic carriers, and 3) the lack of details about how the contact came about, there is no way to begin to guess at that answer.

But you can never satisfy all the people all the time

Especially when there are fake stats and facts involved.
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Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2020, 08:49:48 PM »
Nope, sorry. Absolute garbage. The vast majority of the time a car is operated by a person under the influence, nothing happens. They cause absolutely no damage.
The vast majority of time may not cause damage. What about the number of times drunk people drive (When leaving A how often do they not make it to B)

Quote
Again, nope, sorry. Based on everything we know about how spread works, curbside delivery where the drivers stay in their cars with the doors and windows closed, and the infected person puts the items in their trunks, should yield very few infections. If the drivers wipe down the surfaces and items touched by the infected person, that number goes even lower.
I agree. I have no clue why NY banned this. Was just saying this to amplify the argument.
Quote
No clue. Considering 1) the amount of false negatives, 2) the amount of asymptomatic carriers, and 3) the lack of details about how the contact came about, there is no way to begin to guess at that answer.

But if that could be done do you think it wouldn't help?
Quote
Especially when there are fake stats and facts involved.
Thanks. Appreciate your interpretation.
May I just add that real stats may not be any more helpful?
 


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