Is Florida less honest than China?

[yaakov35]

Source? I just posted something that proves that’s untrue

Ask @Dan or anyone who lives outside the ny/nj area.

[S209]

You just asked about people being skeptical. 3 months ago, most people took it seriously. Now is a different ball game

People are skeptical of the death toll, which makes no sense. Obviously most of the frum deaths in the tri-State area took place a couple of months ago (as is true for the secular population as well). Of course, there have been quite a few frum COVID deaths in the last few weeks as well, just not as many as before.

[S209]

Ask @Dan or anyone who lives outside the ny/nj area.

I’m sorry? How would they know how many frum people vs. non frum people died in NY/NJ?

[yaakov35]

People are skeptical of the death toll, which makes no sense. Obviously most of the frum deaths in the tri-State area took place a couple of months ago (as is true for the secular population as well). Of course, there have been quite a few frum COVID deaths in the last few weeks as well, just not as many as before.

Ask families that had niftarim. Lots are under the impression that they did not die from covid but rather from neglect, hunger etc. A family member of mine was niftar and nobody in my family thinks it was actually because of corona... So its a really tricky subject and that's why I feel people who had loved ones that were niftar are especially skeptical.

[yaakov35]

I’m sorry? How would they know how many frum people vs. non frum people died in NY/NJ?

It's not an area thing, its a kllal

[S209]

Ask families that had niftarim. Lots are under the impression that they did not die from covid but rather from neglect, hunger etc. A family member of mine was niftar and nobody in my family thinks it was actually because of corona... So its a really tricky subject and that's why I feel people who had loved ones that were niftar are especially skeptical.

People don’t die of neglect. It’s not an actual cause of death. Also, nobody in NY died of hunger this century.

What is possible is people had COVID and died because they weren’t treated properly because it was a new disease and waan’t fully understood while hospitals were overwhelmed and understaffed.

[yaakov35]

People don’t die of neglect. It’s not an actual cause of death. Also, nobody in NY died of hunger this century.

What is possible is people had COVID and died because they weren’t treated properly because it was a new disease and waan’t fully understood while hospitals were overwhelmed and understaffed.

If they were overwhelmed and understaffed why would it be crazy if patients did not get enough food/medicine that they needed

[S209]

It's not an area thing, its a kllal

I am pointing out that there is zero reason to believe frum people were hit harder than other people in NY. Proof is Brooklyn was *not* the hardest hit boro, despite what many here think. The only part that may be true is that frum people were hit hard *first*.

[S209]

If they were overwhelmed and understaffed why would it be crazy if patients did not get enough food/medicine that they needed

If you’re a man of reasonable intelligence you should understand that it’s extremely unlikely there was even a single patient who died as a direct result of not receiving sufficient food/nutrients orally or through IV. This isn’t a third world country.

Lack or maladministration of medicine, perhaps. That still counts as a COVID death. If one chokes but could have been saved with the Heimlich are they a victim of “neglect” or of choking?

[yaakov35]

If you’re a man of reasonable intelligence you should understand that it’s extremely unlikely there was even a single patient who died as a direct result of not receiving sufficient food/nutrients orally or through IV. This isn’t a third world country.

Lack or maladministration of medicine, perhaps. That still counts as a COVID death. If one chokes but could have been saved with the Heimlich are they a victim of “neglect” or of choking?

While it doesn't seem plausible these were extenuating circumstances so who knows. But these same healthcare workers were applauding the blm guys, so who knows

[iluv2travel]

I also know of a few cases where people were taken to the hospital with a heart attack, asthma attack, or kidney failure and they ended up dying because there were not given the proper care at all due to the hospitals being extremely overwhelmed. In different times, they most likely would not have died.

They did not come in with COVID-19 but that was the cause of death put on their death certificate - in those few weeks at the peak practically every cause of death was recorded as COVID-19 regardless of the real cause. Yes, they were collateral damage of the virus, but that is not what their actual cause of death was.

Bottom line is that there is political motivation both ways to play around with the numbers.

[S209]

I also know of a few cases where people were taken to the hospital with a heart attack, asthma attack, or kidney failure and they ended up dying because there were not given the proper care at all due to the hospitals being extremely overwhelmed. In different times, they most likely would not have died.

They did not come in with COVID-19 but that was the cause of death put on their death certificate - in those few weeks at the peak practically every cause of death was recorded as COVID-19 regardless of the real cause. Yes, they were collateral damage of the virus, but that is not what their actual cause of death was.

Bottom line is that there is political motivation both ways to play around with the numbers.

How do you know they didn’t go in with COVID? Also, do you have a source that COVID was recorded as practically every cause of death regardless of real cause?  Because, you know, that’s a lie that’s easily refutable if you just check.

You do realize far far more people than usual were recorded to have died of *other* causes during those weeks? That’s what excess mortality means.

[iluv2travel]

How do you know they didn’t go in with COVID? Also, do you have a source that COVID was recorded as practically every cause of death regardless of real cause?  Because, you know, that’s a lie that’s easily refutable if you just check.

You do realize far far more people than usual were recorded to have died of *other* causes during those weeks? That’s what excess mortality means.

Because they were tested and it was negative.  Someone who does burials and did many of them over that time period told me there wasn't a single person on his list for days on end with a cause of death that did not state COVID-19. He was perplexed as to how come all of a sudden nobody was dying from heart failure or cancer or something else. I understand this is not factual evidence and is only anecdotal but I know other people who also heard from reliable sources that COVID-19 was used as cause of death by default.

This is of course not to say that our community didn't have a huge number of deaths directly attributable to the virus. Even 1 is too many. But to bury your head in the sand and think only the reverse way numbers are being manipulated is a fallacy.

[Dan]

Because they were tested and it was negative.  Someone who does burials and did many of them over that time period told me there wasn't a single person on his list for days on end with a cause of death that did not state COVID-19. He was perplexed as to how come all of a sudden nobody was dying from heart failure or cancer or something else. I understand this is not factual evidence and is only anecdotal but I know other people who also heard from reliable sources that COVID-19 was used as cause of death by default.

This is of course not to say that our community didn't have a huge number of deaths directly attributable to the virus. Even 1 is too many. But to bury your head in the sand and think only the reverse way numbers are being manipulated is a fallacy.

Which part of this is hard to understand? Anecdotal stories don't make up for the massive excess death numbers being seen worldwide. A negative test is meaningless as the testing is not accurate. What is accurate is the total death toll.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-53073046

[yaakov35]

Because they were tested and it was negative.  Someone who does burials and did many of them over that time period told me there wasn't a single person on his list for days on end with a cause of death that did not state COVID-19. He was perplexed as to how come all of a sudden nobody was dying from heart failure or cancer or something else. I understand this is not factual evidence and is only anecdotal but I know other people who also heard from reliable sources that COVID-19 was used as cause of death by default.

This is of course not to say that our community didn't have a huge number of deaths directly attributable to the virus. Even 1 is too many. But to bury your head in the sand and think only the reverse way numbers are being manipulated is a fallacy.

100%. People die all the time of heart attacks, cancer etc. Every single niftar between purim and after pesach cod was covid. So was definitely played with. And don't forget hospitals are getting a 20% add on per medicare patient with covid.... so its in their best interest to make everyone have covid

[Dan]

100%. People die all the time of heart attacks, cancer etc. Every single niftar between purim and after pesach cod was covid. So was definitely played with. And don't forget hospitals are getting a 20% add on per medicare patient with covid.... so its in their best interest to make everyone have covid

Head, meet sand.

Which part of this is hard to understand? Anecdotal stories don't make up for the massive excess death numbers being seen worldwide. A negative test is meaningless as the testing is not accurate. What is accurate is the total death toll.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-53073046

[yaakov35]

Head, meet sand.

We were talking about what we know here locally, on a worldwide level whose to tell what the numbers actually are. And if your a hospital admin, 20% is a lot of money and you will make sure that anyone who has any kind of symptom gets put down as covid

[Dan]

We were talking about what we know here locally, on a worldwide level whose to tell what the numbers actually are. And if your a hospital admin, 20% is a lot of money and you will make sure that anyone who has any kind of symptom gets put down as covid

Oh local. Why didn't you say so 

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

[yaakov35]

Oh local. Why didn't you say so 

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

In the US it is in the hospitals best interest to have as many covid as possible. As long as the hospital is run functionally I find it very hard to imagine they under reported.

[Dan]

In the US it is in the hospitals best interest to have as many covid as possible. As long as the hospital is run functionally I find it very hard to imagine they under reported.

Nice deflection.
Or do you not understand the term excess deaths?