Is Florida less honest than China?

[avromie7]

Do consequences include apologizing if he was wrong?

I don't think that's something we should get involved in and I certainly am not getting involved.

[Eb228]

https://torasavigdor.org/chanuka-hyrcanus-downfall/

And here is the most relative point

Question: Torah gives reshus for a doctor to perform medical work מכאן שנתן רשות לרופא לרפאות – so I had once an argument with a learned man and he said that as far as the chachamim, the gedolei had or – he told me like this, this was his argument – he said, “I would go along with them, I would accept their opinion in religious matters. But when it comes let’s say to sickness, I’d draw the line there. The Torah gave the doctors the reshut to heal.” So it’s the same with politics, don’t you think?

Rav Miller: He’s an apikores; he’s a kofer b’Hashem. Because Hashem said you have to listen in everything to the gedolim. Only, they’re the ones to tell you ורפא ירפא – they tell you to go to a doctor.

So there’s no question about drawing a line. If the gadol tells you not to go to a doctor, then you don’t go. He won’t tell you that because Torah says that you should go. But there’s no such thing as drawing lines, because what a gadol tells you, that’s our lives.

Now, a real gadol is very careful what he does and what he doesn’t tell you. Understand that. And that’s why on many things they don’t say because they have not yet found it necessary to formulate a policy. But don’t think that there are areas where a gadol has a right to say and areas where he doesn’t have a right to say. A gadol, a great man has a right to say on everything.

Now this has to be hammered into our heads over and over again, for years and years until we get it into our heads. If we want to succeed in our lives, not only as Jews, if we want to succeed as human beings, we have to take guidance from people who are competent. And who is competent for the Jewish nation? The gedolei Yisroel.

Now, I know my audience. Not everybody here is soaked, steeped in Torah, and it will take many years to get this across. Because people come from the street with the street ideas that rabbis should take care of rabbi business. Outside of rabbi business they have nothing to say. It’ll take years and years, like I said, before we hammer this into their heads that there’s no such thing. The Torah covers every phase of life and therefore in everything we do, if we can have guidance, we should seek it.

 

@Lurker @yelped @aygart @Ergel @Euclid @yuneeq

Hope this source is acceptable to you.

Awaiting replies...

[grodnoking]

Moving this back to Florida... it's Monday, coming off a holiday weekend where a number of testing sites were closed, and FL is reporting 6336 new cases. Looks like it may be another record setting week.

There is still no talk of moving the state back to Phase 1. Here are the current guidelines for Phase 2: https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/plan-for-floridas-recovery/

Florida does not seem to be moving backwards restrictions wise, but Miami Dade is closing down.

[aygart]

If you don't like the most basic pshat, here's the Even Ezra saying we can't listen to doctors at all on Corona

1. What are you thinking is the most basic pshat? What you wrote?
2. Please explain how you see that in the Ibn Ezra (I think I know but want to be certain)
2a. Is the halacha like this Ibn Ezra?

[aygart]

@Lurker @yelped @aygart @Ergel @Euclid @yuneeq

Hope this source is acceptable to you.

Awaiting replies...

Amazing how you cherry picked one line but overlooked the next one.

[Lurker]

@Lurker @yelped @aygart @Ergel @Euclid @yuneeq

Hope this source is acceptable to you.

Awaiting replies...

Only, they’re the ones to tell you ורפא ירפא – they tell you to go to a doctor.

IMO, and this may not be popular, any rov who thinks they should have the final say on medical issues doesn't deserve the title. V'rapoh y'rapeh isn't talking about rabbonim.

This has been an epic waste of time, as usual. Your source confirms what I said. In Lubavitch (I know that's only almost Judaism unless you need a Chabad House), every published directive from Rabbomin or Botei Dinim were unanimous in telling everyone to follow the advice of the doctors. In my world, it is unheard of for a rov to blatantly disregard medical advice.

[Lurker]

Florida does not seem to be moving backwards restrictions wise, but Miami Dade is closing down.

Local government is responding, but people aren't really following the directives. IMO, not having the backing of the state plays a big part in this. Having some uniformity with regards to safety regulations is important.

[Ergel]

....

That's a quote from Rav Avigdor Miller

[Lurker]

That's a quote from Rav Avigdor Miller

Edited, apologies. Still rubs me wrong, but I'm a koifer.

[Mikes@Micro]

This has been an epic waste of time, as usual. Your source confirms what I said. In Lubavitch (I know that's only almost Judaism unless you need a Chabad House), every published directive from Rabbomin or Botei Dinim were unanimous in telling everyone to follow the advice of the doctors. In my world, it is unheard of for a rov to blatantly disregard medical advice.

Maybe his point is that you should first speak to a Rov, then speak to a Doctor?

[Lurker]

Maybe his point is that you should first speak to a Rov, then speak to a Doctor?

No, his point was that Rabbonim should be making the final call.

I'm saying that so what if the doctors begged the rabbanim to close. The rabbanim looked at the data the doctors provided and decided it wasn't the right step at that time.
And to suggest that's why ppl died is outright wrong

This is the antithesis of what Rav Miller said.

[CountValentine]

Amazing how you cherry picked one line but overlooked the next one.

This is interesting. What is the next line?

[Yard sale]

My source is that we live our lives, every aspect of our lives, according to Torah. The way we know what the Torah wants is through our rabbanim.

If you're explaining vrapeh to mean that the doctors opinion supersedes the rabbanims in medical cases, you need the source not me.

So if a doctor who is a Baki tells you a patient is in sakana and needs fluid immediately on Yom Kippur and a Rosh Yeshiva standing there tells you he feels that it’s not proper for Yom Kippur , besides, maybe the zechus of Yom Kippur will protect him, and if the patient dies at least he died doing a dvar mitzvah (it would never happen but hypothetically) do you a) listen to the Rosh Yeshiva because he’s Daas Torah or b)physically remove the Rosh Yeshiva from in front of the sink to obtain water if need be, since the doctor is calling it a sakana and the Rosh Yeshiva is not disputing the facts as the doctor stated them?

[Mikes@Micro]

So if a doctor who is a Baki tells you a patient is in sakana and needs fluid immediately on Yom Kippur and a Rosh Yeshiva standing there tells you he feels that it’s not proper for Yom Kippur , besides, maybe the zechus of Yom Kippur will protect him, and if the patient dies at least he died doing a dvar mitzvah (it would never happen but hypothetically) do you a) listen to the Rosh Yeshiva because he’s Daas Torah or b)physically remove the Rosh Yeshiva from in front of the sink to obtain water if need be, since the doctor is calling it a sakana and the Rosh Yeshiva is not disputing the facts as the doctor stated them?

Lol. Is this a question?

I think there is a deep misunderstanding here

Read the quote

https://torasavigdor.org/chanuka-hyrcanus-downfall/


Now, a real gadol is very careful what he does and what he doesn’t tell you. Understand that. And that’s why on many things they don’t say because they have not yet found it necessary to formulate a policy. But don’t think that there are areas where a gadol has a right to say and areas where he doesn’t have a right to say. A gadol, a great man has a right to say on everything.


 

[boro boy]

The problem is that covid-19 is politics now -crazy-

[Lurker]

Lol. Is this a question?

I think there is a deep misunderstanding here

Read the quote

No misunderstanding. The question is paraphrasing the quote below:

Full disclaimer: My Daas Torah says that many fewer ppl would have died had we kept shuls open straight through and had the zchus of tefillah bitzibur bbeis midrash on our side. And that it is terrible hashkafa to believe that anyone was harmed from going to shul.

I know that it's not popular opinion on here, and I'm talking to those whose rabbanim ended thinking they should be closed, are you suggesting they were wrong at that time? Don't you trust your rav is supposed to make any and all decisions and has a special siyatta dishmaya in klal matters?

[CountValentine]

The problem is that covid-19 is politics now -crazy-

When wasn't it?

[boro boy]

When wasn't it?

true!

[Mikes@Micro]

No misunderstanding. The question is paraphrasing the quote below:

Fact check:

Person is Dehydrating == immediate definite danger to life of specific person

Wear masks + Davening spread out == Possiblity of getting sick

[Mikes@Micro]

When wasn't it?

I'm not sure any of us are old enough to remember the last time something was apolitical.

@Yard sale everyone needs a rabbi. Not much else to say.....
(Just pleaseeeeee don't bring us anywhere near the WZO debate.)