Author Topic: Is Florida less honest than China?  (Read 36210 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #280 on: July 06, 2020, 06:30:29 PM »
Fact check:

Person is Dehydrating == immediate definite danger to life of specific person

Wear masks + Davening spread out == Possiblity of getting sick

Fact check: he's not talking about now, he's saying that shuls should never have closed and people died because they did. Says nothing about masks and social distancing.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #281 on: July 06, 2020, 06:32:04 PM »
I'm not sure any of us are old enough to remember the last time something was apolitical.
We just had a unanimous SCOTUS decision.  :)
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Offline S209

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #282 on: July 06, 2020, 06:32:45 PM »
We just had a unanimous SCOTUS decision.  :)
SCOTUS is apolitical  :P
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline yelped

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #283 on: July 06, 2020, 06:34:06 PM »
@Eb228 Can you please bring your source for the definition of Daas Torah?
I'm still waiting.

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #284 on: July 06, 2020, 06:38:00 PM »
Fact check: he's not talking about now, he's saying that shuls should never have closed and people died because they did. Says nothing about masks and social distancing.
There was mad rush to close them. Why didn't we start with finding an Avenue to allow something?

This entire situation is certainly a heavenly punishment. Who are you to say that someone who unreasonably prevented Tefilah betzibur will not be punished?
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
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Offline yelped

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #285 on: July 06, 2020, 06:38:30 PM »
There was mad rush to close them. Why didn't we start with finding an Avenue to allow something?

This entire situation is certainly a heavenly punishment. Who are you to say that someone who unreasonably prevented Tefilah betzibur will not be punished?
::)

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #286 on: July 06, 2020, 06:39:18 PM »
Maybe his point is that you should first speak to a Rov, then speak to a Doctor?

Actually, my point was to first speak to a doctor, gather the facts, theroies, and opinions and present them to the Rav for a final desicion.
Unless the Rav said "Go to this doctor and follow what he says, you can trust him".

Just curious, has anyone here ever had to ask a medical q to the likes of R' Gissinger ztl, what was the process. Who made the final decision?

Offline Mikes@Micro

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #287 on: July 06, 2020, 06:40:23 PM »
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #288 on: July 06, 2020, 06:41:19 PM »
Fact check:

Person is Dehydrating == immediate definite danger to life of specific person

Wear masks + Davening spread out == Possiblity of getting sick


If you're explaining vrapeh to mean that the doctors opinion supersedes the rabbanims in medical cases, you need the source not me.

I don’t think he was qualifying what he was saying to limit it to highly questionable sakana. Of course if a Rav who is well versed in the Klalei hapesak says that the danger the doctor is referring to doesn’t meet the criteria  of sakana in Halacha that is the Ravs role. However, when he is not disputing the doctor on fact or criteria of sakana, or the fact that Halacha would call it a sakana, but is stating that there is a segula that will protect one from the sakana and therefore on should not do the course of action that would be usually be dictated by Shulchan aruch (especially if he is a Rosh Yeshiva and not a posek) that is where I don’t think op is correct.

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #289 on: July 06, 2020, 06:42:46 PM »
@Yard sale Well said!
Quote or engagement  equals full throated endorsement and vote!
H/t PinchosL

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #290 on: July 06, 2020, 06:43:50 PM »
Actually, my point was to first speak to a doctor, gather the facts, theroies, and opinions and present them to the Rav for a final desicion.
Unless the Rav said "Go to this doctor and follow what he says, you can trust him".

Just curious, has anyone here ever had to ask a medical q to the likes of R' Gissinger ztl, what was the process. Who made the final decision?

Do you honestly report back to your rov every time a doctor tells you something so you can get the rov's approval?
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Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #291 on: July 06, 2020, 06:46:06 PM »
Fact check: he's not talking about now, he's saying that shuls should never have closed and people died because they did. Says nothing about masks and social distancing.

Because I didn't spell out it out means that's what he meant?!
Obviously with saftey precautions.

See my next post where I'll post the written shmuess where this gadol I heard it from said it

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #292 on: July 06, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »
Tefilah Bitzibur during COVID-19

Based on a shmuess from one of the Gedolei Hador who shall remain unnamed as I wrote it in my own words and may not have given it over exactly as intended.

It would seem there are four levels of businesses. First are ones that are essential for survival, such as groceries and pharmacies. Second would be those that life would be very inconvenient without, but very much survivable, such as home goods. Third are those that are definitely extra, but not yet classified as luxuries, such as liquor stores. And lastly are those that are totally unnecessary, such as restaurants, shoe stores & toy stores.
NJ has deemed the first three categories permissible to be open during COVID-19, and has only banned the fourth category. And obviously, even those that are allowed to be open are only with set preconditions of social distancing, masks, and gloves.
The govt, understandably, included places of worship in the fourth category. Understandably, because why would any non-religious person understand the importance of prayers. But what about us, we that remained silent, almost agreeing that our Shuls fall under the category of totally unnecessary. Could we not try to explain to the govt that to us, that believe the healing of this virus will only come from Above, not any doctor or vaccine, that our Shuls are just as essential as pharmacies? Or at the very least, that they’re on the same plane as liquor stores, as they’ll calm our nerves during this trying time [the very reason liquor stores are allowed to be open]?
Can’t we be trusted to implement the same measures as Target & CVS? Just as every grocery has hired a guard, taped distance markings on the floor, require masks & gloves, and limited the number of people entering at once, so could our Shuls. We could have had an appointed gabbai for each shul to arrange many smaller minyanim, with prior registration required for the maximum capacity of mispalallim within the safety guidelines per minyan.  We could have taped distance markings on the floor, hired someone to make sure the rules were being followed, & hired another to sanitize tables & chairs between each minyan.
If we had truly valued Tefillah Bitzibur, and recognized that Tefilah is the only way we will survive this virus, and that davening Bitzibur is more vital now then ever, would we not have raised our voices begging, explaining, demanding that our Shuls can keep social distancing guidelines as well as any store, and should not be treated any worse than liquor stores?

But let us say we were not successful in convincing the powers that be, and the govt insisted that all places of worship be closed, what has absolved us of making every effort to Daven with a minyan.
Many made what has now been termed “porch minyanim”, only to find pictures of these minyanim show up on social media in an anti semitic context. They were being used to show how we Jews did not care about the virus or killing people, would totally disregard any guidelines put in place by the govt & medical field, and were probably the cause of it’s spread in NJ.
This, despite almost every minyan meeting every social distancing guideline, and then some. Definitely better than many other communities were adhering to them. It was pure nonsense being spread by anti Semites.
Yet, we were told that this was causing Eivah.
Let’s pause here for a second to recall other anti semitic social media postings and our reaction to them. When RUOC or Toms River Strong [yms”h] posted about developers non stop building and over crowding the infrastructure, did we suggest they stop building because of Eivah? When Brick posted about Jews invading their parks, did we suggest we be more careful to keep it clean etc.?
Or did we shout from the rooftops Anti Semites, shut them down, hate speech, etc.?
When someone shouted an anti semitic statement at an extremely luxurious car driving by did we say maybe we shouldn’t be shteching arois di oigen of the poorer goyim as we are in galus, or did we respond anti semite, etc.?
When the media reported in anti semitic terms how we closed down streets for events, got rules bent for our benefit and other similar things, did we stop and remember that we’re in golus, or did we demand an apology for the hate speech?
Yet, when anti semites post about our minyanim, our reaction is to stop davening bitzibur? Are our priorities so skewed?
We are more in the right now then in any of the above scenarios. We can have minyanim following the most strict of guidelines suggested, but because of some anti semites twisting the facts, we decide to follow guidelines restricting far too many people from participating in these “porch minyanim”? Do we really have such a lack of appreciation for davening with a minyan? Are we really machsiv Tefilah Bitzibur so lowly on the totem pole?

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #293 on: July 06, 2020, 06:49:29 PM »
Do you honestly report back to your rov every time a doctor tells you something so you can get the rov's approval?

I certainly do.

When my wife was expecting, I called before evey visit [we had many q's] to ask what toask so he can make an informed desicion, and called back after to give over the info and get a psak.
In fact, my doctor called the rav himself a few times to give over direct, as he told me he does on a daily basis to a slew of lakewood rabbanim

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #294 on: July 06, 2020, 07:00:42 PM »
I certainly do.

When my wife was expecting, I called before evey visit [we had many q's] to ask what toask so he can make an informed desicion, and called back after to give over the info and get a psak.
In fact, my doctor called the rav himself a few times to give over direct, as he told me he does on a daily basis to a slew of lakewood rabbanim

You should also ask him before posting on DDF. Something tells me he wouldn't approve.
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Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #295 on: July 06, 2020, 07:02:05 PM »
You should also ask him before posting on DDF. Something tells me he wouldn't approve.

We all have a yetzer hara....

Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #296 on: July 06, 2020, 07:02:20 PM »
You should also ask him before posting on DDF. Something tells me he wouldn't approve.

Someone needs to educate the masses

/s

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #297 on: July 06, 2020, 07:04:24 PM »
Someone needs to educate the masses

Is that what you think you're doing? Shkop, is that you?
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Offline Eb228

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #298 on: July 06, 2020, 07:05:00 PM »
Is that what you think you're doing? Shkop, is that you?

Edited

I didn't mean that seriously. I love having conversations about differences of opinion, esp where I think of mine very strongly, and you of yours

Offline yelped

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Re: Is Florida less honest than China?
« Reply #299 on: July 06, 2020, 07:05:38 PM »
Someone needs to educate the masses
תני תנא קמיה דרבא בר רב הונא ההורג נחשים ועקרבים בשבת אין רוח חסידים נוחה הימנו אמר ליה ואותן חסידים אין רוח חכמים נוחה מהם ופליגא דרב הונא דרב הונא חזייה לההוא גברא דקא קטיל זיבורא אמר ליה שלימתינהו לכולהו