Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 522766 times)

Online Euclid

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2300 on: October 14, 2020, 12:52:51 AM »
@yzj did you delete that post?? It was great!

Offline Dan

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2301 on: October 14, 2020, 12:54:39 AM »
@yzj did you delete that post?? It was great!
Looks like it's in the recycle bin.
@yzj should I restore it?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yzj

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2302 on: October 14, 2020, 01:05:27 AM »
Looks like it's in the recycle bin.
@yzj should I restore it?
I had second thoughts about taking the thread off topic and possibly inviting uncalled for posts such as



 but if you want to restore it go ahead.

Offline Yankel101

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2303 on: October 14, 2020, 07:27:34 AM »
What do vaccinations have anything to do with Lakewood trending more balebatish.
You're just a hater with an ax to grind

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2304 on: October 14, 2020, 08:27:55 AM »
What do vaccinations have anything to do with Lakewood trending more balebatish.
You're just a hater with an ax to grind

You completely missed his point
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Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2305 on: October 14, 2020, 08:38:26 AM »
You completely missed his point
Yup sounds like he is a hater with an ax to grind
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline m65

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2306 on: October 14, 2020, 08:48:42 AM »
What do vaccinations have anything to do with Lakewood trending more balebatish.
You're just a hater with an ax to grind
in lakewood, everything has to do with everything

Offline yzj

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2307 on: October 14, 2020, 10:03:48 AM »
Yup sounds like he is a hater with an ax to grind
If you think I’m some anti askanim anti yeshiva HH guy you completely misread my post. I have tremendous respect for our askanim, elected officials, and rabbanim. They do an often thankless task, largely behind the scenes, and give of themselves so much in ways that are often largely unknown. The lengths that they go for yechidim and the klal are unbelievable, and they often get abused and criticized for things that they would be getting accolades for if the inside story was able to be divulged.  But the issue raised was the dynamic that Lakewood finds itself in and my post addressed that.

Everyone knows that if you take a snapshot of a society and it’s dynamics, it didn’t develop overnight in a vacuum. For example, the Chareidi society in E”Y and it’s relationship to the government can be traced back to the Zionist movement in Europe, the zionists and the Holocaust, Ben Gurion and the Charon Ish, the Brisker Rav, and many complex factors that led to the situation as it is today.

Another example is the Chassidim and their relationship with secular society and government. One can write a thesis on the evolution of that dynamic and it’s contributory causes.

Lakewood is no different. To take a snapshot of Lakewood today and blame things on covid is to miss the complex evolution of a dynamic that has many root causes so that what you see today is the symptom, not the cause.

Every one of the things I mentioned (and many many more that I did not mention) is a contributing  factor. For example, the fact that the leadership was very young when they assumed that role meant that there were other forces in town that considered themselves (and still consider themselves)to be from the previous dor and not seeing the need to shtel tzu to those much younger than them. This allowed for the emergence of political leadership that didn’t necessarily see eye to eye with the Rabbinic-leadership, something that would obviously have been impossible in the days of Rav Aharon.

This lead to a situation where you had widely diverging views on a host of issues. Sometimes people received private guidance from the Rabbinic leadership that was contrary to the public position for this reason. For example you had yungerleit “protesting the yeshiva” developing a mall but there was really private guidance that encouraged said letters and protests.

Perhaps I’ll expand on some of the other points in the post later but if you look at each of them they clearly contributed and shaped the dynamic that is now taking place.



 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 10:06:50 AM by yzj »

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2308 on: October 14, 2020, 10:20:29 AM »
If you think I’m some anti askanim anti yeshiva HH guy you completely misread my post. I have tremendous respect for our askanim, elected officials, and rabbanim. They do an often thankless task, largely behind the scenes, and give of themselves so much in ways that are often largely unknown. The lengths that they go for yechidim and the klal are unbelievable, and they often get abused and criticized for things that they would be getting accolades for if the inside story was able to be divulged.  But the issue raised was the dynamic that Lakewood finds itself in and my post addressed that.

Everyone knows that if you take a snapshot of a society and it’s dynamics, it didn’t develop overnight in a vacuum. For example, the Chareidi society in E”Y and it’s relationship to the government can be traced back to the Zionist movement in Europe, the zionists and the Holocaust, Ben Gurion and the Charon Ish, the Brisker Rav, and many complex factors that led to the situation as it is today.

Another example is the Chassidim and their relationship with secular society and government. One can write a thesis on the evolution of that dynamic and it’s contributory causes.

Lakewood is no different. To take a snapshot of Lakewood today and blame things on covid is to miss the complex evolution of a dynamic that has many root causes so that what you see today is the symptom, not the cause.

Every one of the things I mentioned (and many many more that I did not mention) is a contributing  factor. For example, the fact that the leadership was very young when they assumed that role meant that there were other forces in town that considered themselves (and still consider themselves)to be from the previous dor and not seeing the need to shtel tzu to those much younger than them. This allowed for the emergence of political leadership that didn’t necessarily see eye to eye with the Rabbinic-leadership, something that would obviously have been impossible in the days of Rav Aharon.

This lead to a situation where you had widely diverging views on a host of issues. Sometimes people received private guidance from the Rabbinic leadership that was contrary to the public position for this reason. For example you had yungerleit “protesting the yeshiva” developing a mall but there was really private guidance that encouraged said letters and protests.

Perhaps I’ll expand on some of the other points in the post later but if you look at each of them they clearly contributed and shaped the dynamic that is now taking place.



 
That was not a reply to you but rather to the person wo did reply that to you. I fully understand your point and probably better than most.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline David61

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2309 on: October 14, 2020, 10:29:34 AM »
Hard to see that angle. Implying that BMG is the mabul, and the only way to stay safe is to stay away? While the above quote is just hearsay and a kinda meaningless debate for me, it’s easier to comprehend an analogy to a teva, BMG is a teva, Hashem doesn’t need your extra effort to stay safe when you’re in His teva.

That would be consistent with a world where our hishtadlus is not what Hashem wants, or where we can rely on nissim. Perhaps that's your haskafah. It's not the guidance my Rabbonim have been articulating

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2310 on: October 14, 2020, 11:10:42 AM »
That would be consistent with a world where our hishtadlus is not what Hashem wants, or where we can rely on nissim. Perhaps that's your haskafah. It's not the guidance my Rabbonim have been articulating

I'll let you in on a little secret...it's definitely not my hashkafa ;D
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2311 on: October 14, 2020, 11:13:40 AM »
That would be consistent with a world where our hishtadlus is not what Hashem wants, or where we can rely on nissim. Perhaps that's your haskafah. It's not the guidance my Rabbonim have been articulating

Lol, I don't think anyone would accuse @yuneeq of relying on miracles.
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Offline monoso

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2312 on: October 14, 2020, 11:22:38 AM »
Motzai y"t roundup:

1) for the most part hakafos were business as usual.

2) the letter put out by the igud was accompanied by a wink and nod: "anyone who doesn't want to do regular hakafos just shouldn't come to shul".

3) based on the above expect a huge surge next week.

4) there's talk about keeping schools closed for one more week after y"t.

5) I heard directly from the owner of one of the big urgent cares in town that he lost his "contract" (not sure the exact term) to provide tests because he purposely wasn't reporting the results to the county (I believe these were rapids, if I understood him correctly); he was exposed by one of his employees.
So far no uptick (personal observation). Obviously we all contracted it already lol.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2313 on: October 14, 2020, 11:25:09 AM »
So far no uptick (personal observation). Obviously we all contracted it already lol.
Too soon to tell. Takes 5-10 days to show symptoms from exposure.

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2314 on: October 14, 2020, 11:45:54 AM »
So far no uptick (personal observation). Obviously we all contracted it already lol.
Lets just say that I am the only one in my office today. Everyone else is quarantined (I went through that over Yom Tov)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Euclid

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2315 on: October 14, 2020, 02:20:40 PM »
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3456141941099561&id=124227720957683&ref=page_internal
Quote

Lee Turkey Farm


Rather than responding to everyone’s individual comments, because there were many, the following is a mass response in our decision to close from October 5th through October 9th. It is lengthy, but I hope you’ll take the time to read it, as I believe it addresses most of everyone’s concerns and accusations.
This would have been the week we hosted our Fall Harvest Festival, which coincides with the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. No, that is not coincidental, and we’ve never tried to hide that. For the past ~30 years we have gladly opened our doors to a massive crowd of Jewish customers coming for their holiday. This week is BY FAR the busiest week of our year, and gets busier every year. Yes, our regular Saturdays and Sundays and other holidays do get busy, often very busy, but it is NOTHING compared with the week of Sukkot. They are not even a FRACTION as busy. If you have ever been to our farm during this time as compared with other times of year, or even driven past the farm during this week, then you understand what I’m talking about.
The first Orthodox Jewish family discovered our farm over 30 years ago, and as more and more of the Jewish population came to our farm for Sukkot, we did eventually decide to turn it into the week of the Fall Harvest Festival. During this week, we have to open extra fields to park the number of cars that flood our property, and we have to hire dozens of extra employees for the week, most of whom are friends and neighbors doing us a favor, to assist with the onslaught of customers that arrive that week. We have streamlined the process to go picking and to check out afterwards by implementing a bulk bag price rather than weighing and pricing each item individually. This speeds up the process, which makes it more enjoyable for everyone, and additionally is more cost-friendly for you. We charge a fee during this week because it covers the corn maze, which almost every family participates in. We have been extremely accommodating to this holiday and we have been GRATEFUL for the business this holiday brings. If you believe our decision to close the farm this week, this year, after 30 years of doing this, was made lightly, you are SORELY mistaken. You do realize we are taking a massive financial hit by closing during this week? We would not make that decision if we did not believe it to be in everyone’s best interest this year.
Following our decision to close, we have received nothing but negative comments and accusations from the Jewish community. Frankly, we are shocked, but moreover we are DEEPLY hurt and sick to our stomachs over it. We are sorry if you in turn are hurt by our decision to close, but we are absolutely NOT anti-Semitic, and we are repulsed at being labeled as such.
If we were anti-Semitic, would we have allowed this holiday to continue on our farm for the past 30 years? You really believe we all of a sudden decided that we dislike an entire population of people? Or maybe, just maybe, do you think we’re concerned about Covid like much of the world? We have hosted great Jewish customers all summer long. Over the years we host thousands of Jewish camp groups for tours in the summer. This year, in fact, ALL tours and hayrides were cancelled due to Covid and the large group restrictions. Not just Jewish tours, ALL tours. Our own grandchildren are a quarter Jewish, for goodness sake!
Our farm is different from many others because it is not in the middle of the country with wide open spaces. We are a “fishbowl farm”, surrounded by thousands of neighbors all watching every move we make. They have come to expect the large crowds we draw every year during Sukkot. However, this year is not like others. Many of our neighbors are afraid of Covid. If we had carried on as usual, there would have been a social media firestorm criticizing the lack of social distancing and the lack of mask wearing. We can’t seem to win. My own parents, who live on the farm, are 83 and 93 years old. They are at risk as well.
Several of you suggested that we should limit the amount of people who were allowed to come to the farm for the holiday. That sounds fine and well until YOU are the one who drives a long distance to find we’ve already reached capacity. Another suggestion was that we should have customers make reservations and give everyone time limits on the farm. Again, it sounds good in theory, but in reality how are we supposed to find that family when it’s time for them to leave? I know there are certain places that sell tickets for the day to limit the number of people, but honestly, we are not good enough with technology to set something like that up, and it did not come to our minds to hire someone just for this year to do that, especially being that this was a last minute decision. Again, this was a decision we agonized over, and one we were not thrilled to have to make.
For those who mentioned Alstede Farms, they are NOTHING like us, with the exception being that they are also a farm. They are a large, year-round farm with a whole team of employees. They even have their own bussing system! We are a small, seasonal, family farm with 3 full-time employees, myself, my son, and my wife who runs the market with mostly teenagers. The only exception is during Sukkot when, as mentioned, we hire extra hands who are mostly doing us a favor.
I could choose to erase your comments on my previous post, it’s true, but I am going to leave them. You have a right to express your feelings, even if they are painful for us to read.
We are truly sorry for the disappointment we have caused this year. For those who have posted bad reviews, we do hope you will reconsider your words. Covid has messed with all of our lives and we could do without the hatred. We invite you to stop by any time the rest of the season. We are happy to have you. Next year, we intend to carry out our Fall Harvest Festival as normal. If you choose to take your business elsewhere, that is your right as a patron, but please be acutely aware to the fact that we are in no way anti-Semitic, and I will reiterate how hurt we are by this accusation. We are, however, pro-health and anti-Covid.
It's disappointing that the knee jerk reaction of our community is that everyone is anti-semitic.

Offline dasmo801

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2316 on: October 14, 2020, 02:27:47 PM »
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3456141941099561&id=124227720957683&ref=page_internalIt's disappointing that the knee jerk reaction of our community is that everyone is anti-semitic.

Their concern makes perfect sense. In fact, the frum owned company that I work for which is located an hour out of Lakewood has asked the Lakewood employees to telecommute until further notice.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2317 on: October 14, 2020, 02:47:26 PM »
It's disappointing that the knee jerk reaction of our community is that everyone is anti-semitic.

+1. I wonder what a Venn diagram would look like of those who are quick to dismiss others' claims of racism and those who are quick to claim anti-Semitism.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2318 on: October 14, 2020, 04:06:54 PM »
+1. I wonder what a Venn diagram would look like of those who are quick to dismiss others' claims of racism and those who are quick to claim anti-Semitism.

It would look exactly like the Venn diagram for those that call everyone racist and those that claim hating Israel is not anti-semitic.
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Online Euclid

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #2319 on: October 14, 2020, 10:21:51 PM »
Schools are starting to randomly test students, as per the state.