Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 522538 times)

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #400 on: September 02, 2020, 09:18:00 AM »
Is this true? The ability to trace back to weddings includes people who caught it at weddings spreading it elsewhere.
We have had at least a few positives who attended shul AFAIR over the last couple of months with no known spread. If we begin to see that the larger numbers of positives now do result in spread beyond immediate family members etc. that would be a much bigger issue. Right now we should focus on the weddings and the like which are a known issue.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #401 on: September 02, 2020, 09:20:16 AM »
We have had at least a few positives who attended shul AFAIR over the last couple of months with no known spread. If we begin to see that the larger numbers of positives now do result in spread beyond immediate family members etc. that would be a much bigger issue. Right now we should focus on the weddings and the like which are a known issue.
Yes we should focus on the bigger problem now. We have a choice. Weddings or schools and shuls. We may not be able to have both. Is the full blah wedding worth have shuls closed for Yom Kippur?
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #402 on: September 02, 2020, 09:34:37 AM »
Concern.
It seems clear from your posts that all concern is hysteria and fear mongering. So please do be careful with your words. Don’t want any sheeple to lose their minds worrying over the CoronaFlu or anything.
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #403 on: September 02, 2020, 09:41:10 AM »
It seems clear from your posts that all concern is hysteria and fear mongering. So please do be careful with your words. Don’t want any sheeple to lose their minds worrying over the CoronaFlu or anything.

Yet both of you liked this.

Yes we should focus on the bigger problem now. We have a choice. Weddings or schools and shuls. We may not be able to have both. Is the full blah wedding worth have shuls closed for Yom Kippur?
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #404 on: September 02, 2020, 09:50:16 AM »
There clearly needs to be a multi pronged approach, such that we can avoid full blown lock down again:

1. Social distancing and masks should be mandatory indoors. Full stop.

2. Simchas should consider outdoors as much as possible, since you can't wear masks while eating. Crowds should be limited to reduce potential for superspreading events. Out of town guests shouldn't come, except in extenuating circumstances (ie immediate family). I've already had the debate about quarantine so won't rehash.

3. Events need to be cancelled if there's known exposure. This should be common sense. No wedding is worth it if you know that the chosson or Kallah were expose or tested positive.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #405 on: September 02, 2020, 09:56:19 AM »
It seems clear from your posts that all concern is hysteria and fear mongering. So please do be careful with your words. Don’t want any sheeple to lose their minds worrying over the CoronaFlu or anything.
I was raising what you could call hysteria and fear mongering on this forum early in March. The facts substantiated it. They do not currently call for anything more than concern IMO. In fact one could make the case that  the risk of unwelcome government intervention in our shuls, schools, and yeshivos is of far more concern than the actual health hazard. That’s not to say that no one will be hospitalized or ch”v worse. Even with a small number of infections there will eventually be some. It will be an inevitable part of reopening society. But perhaps that does not rise to the level that would mandate significant impositions on the tzzibur , just as there will ch”v be deaths from swimming pools, bein hazmanim road trips, summer activities, families driving to distant family weddings etc. as there are each year, yet no one suggests that the tzibbur curtail these activities. I’m not sure what the dividing line is.

I do think that weddings present a more significant risk of government intervention than is acceptable, and that is something we should act upon in any case.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #406 on: September 02, 2020, 09:56:31 AM »
Yes we should focus on the bigger problem now. We have a choice. Weddings or schools and shuls. We may not be able to have both. Is the full blah wedding worth have shuls closed for Yom Kippur?

I agree that weddings need to be the #1 priority. I do think it will be a great challenge if the perception outside of weddings is one of business as usual.

Social convention is an amazing thing. ...when you have a culture that denies there is any threat to public safety and insists on living life like everything is normal, then you're right: there is no way people are going to change their simcha one iota.
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #407 on: September 02, 2020, 10:02:22 AM »
... just as there will ch”v be deaths from swimming pools, bein hazmanim road trips, summer activities, families driving to distant family weddings etc. as there are each year, yet no one suggests that the tzibbur curtail these activities. I’m not sure what the dividing line is.

All of the things which we do that present what we deem to be acceptable risks come with safety precautions. We go swimming with a lifeguard (or responsible adult in private). We drive within the parameters of federal and local safety regulations. We take trips to places which all have safety precautions built in, in addition to individuals setting up their own precautions.

What precautions are in place in Lakewood for living life with Covid in the community?
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #408 on: September 02, 2020, 10:09:34 AM »
I was raising what you could call hysteria and fear mongering on this forum early in March. The facts substantiated it. They do not currently call for anything more than concern IMO.

So when would they? *after* a significant amount of hospitalizations? How do you know that the 35 cases confirmed in the last 2 days aren’t “community spread”?

In fact one could make the case that  the risk of unwelcome government intervention in our shuls, schools, and yeshivos is of far more concern than the actual health hazard. That’s not to say that no one will be hospitalized or ch”v worse. Even with a small number of infections there will eventually be some. It will be an inevitable part of reopening society. But perhaps that does not rise to the level that would mandate significant impositions on the tzzibur , just as there will ch”v be deaths from swimming pools, bein hazmanim road trips, summer activities, families driving to distant family weddings etc. as there are each year, yet no one suggests that the tzibbur curtail these activities. I’m not sure what the dividing line is.

I do think that weddings present a more significant risk of government intervention than is acceptable, and that is something we should act upon in any case.
I agree with much of what you wrote.

Not to detract from your point, which is objectively valid, but I think you’re equating things that are far from similar-

1) How many people in Lakewood can potentially die from not controlling this with objectively light measures *within a few weeks*? How many’s health will suffer long term? Also, you don’t get to decide whether COVID kills you, only whether you lock yourself up at home or subject yourself to the mercy of everyone else’s precautions.
2) How many die in Lakewood each *year* from all of the things you listed? IINM it’s in the range of 2 or less each year. Many (most?) years, 0. And all are a direct result of some individual human negligence. We don’t really accept death all that much. Also, each of those are objectively preventable, and they are not at the mercy of others’ decision making.
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Offline Euclid

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #409 on: September 02, 2020, 10:14:45 AM »
just assume u had/ have it and call it a day
I believe this is the prevalent mindset in Lakewood. Covid == regular mild viral illness; no need to get tested.

Offline ttn

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #410 on: September 02, 2020, 10:19:18 AM »
I believe this is the prevalent mindset in Lakewood. Covid == regular mild viral illness; no need to get tested.
I guess people forgot how many people died from this in Lakewood itself. Yes a lot of the precautions I agree are a little extreme but if someone has the symptoms the mindset to go on life as usual is just stupid.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #411 on: September 02, 2020, 10:37:48 AM »
I guess people forgot how many people died from this in Lakewood itself. Yes a lot of the precautions I agree are a little extreme but if someone has the symptoms the mindset to go on life as usual is just stupid.
Along with the claim that no one died from covid; they were all killed by the doctors and hospitals.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #412 on: September 02, 2020, 10:41:51 AM »
So when would they? *after* a significant amount of hospitalizations? How do you know that the 35 cases confirmed in the last 2 days aren’t “community spread”?
I agree with much of what you wrote.

Not to detract from your point, which is objectively valid, but I think you’re equating things that are far from similar-

1) How many people in Lakewood can potentially die from not controlling this with objectively light measures *within a few weeks*? How many’s health will suffer long term? Also, you don’t get to decide whether COVID kills you, only whether you lock yourself up at home or subject yourself to the mercy of everyone else’s precautions.
2) How many die in Lakewood each *year* from all of the things you listed? IINM it’s in the range of 2 or less each year. Many (most?) years, 0. And all are a direct result of some individual human negligence. We don’t really accept death all that much. Also, each of those are objectively preventable, and they are not at the mercy of others’ decision making.
There’s truth in that. It’s a question of degrees. If you take the Kewish community in the Tri state area as a whole it’s a much larger number. If you would refuse to give a hechsher to places like Bagel Nosh and other unhealthy restaurants and didn’t allow stores to carry unhealthy food choices you’d easily save dozens of lives in Lakewood each year, but that’s obviously not a mechayev. The question is a what point it becomes one.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #413 on: September 02, 2020, 10:45:24 AM »
There’s truth in that. It’s a question of degrees. If you take the Kewish community in the Tri state area as a whole it’s a much larger number. If you would refuse to give a hechsher to places like Bagel Nosh and other unhealthy restaurants and didn’t allow stores to carry unhealthy food choices you’d easily save dozens of lives in Lakewood each year, but that’s obviously not a mechayev. The question is a what point it becomes one.

You didn't just equate eating in restaurants with Covid....
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #414 on: September 02, 2020, 10:46:19 AM »
You didn't just equate eating in restaurants with Covid....
Of course not. Just using the absurd to illustrate a point

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #415 on: September 02, 2020, 10:48:34 AM »
It seems clear from your posts that all concern is hysteria and fear mongering. So please do be careful with your words. Don’t want any sheeple to lose their minds worrying over the CoronaFlu or anything.
That can be found in both directions (ahem ahem)
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #416 on: September 02, 2020, 10:51:33 AM »
There’s truth in that. It’s a question of degrees. If you take the Kewish community in the Tri state area as a whole it’s a much larger number. If you would refuse to give a hechsher to places like Bagel Nosh and other unhealthy restaurants and didn’t allow stores to carry unhealthy food choices you’d easily save dozens of lives in Lakewood each year, but that’s obviously not a mechayev. The question is a what point it becomes one.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #417 on: September 02, 2020, 10:55:59 AM »
The reason why none of these other risks are comparable is because those are all individual choices that affect only that individual.

Covid prevention measures are clearly to protect the community. The only other possible comparison is to motor vehicle accidents that have other involved parties, and there's a whole litany of rules there.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #418 on: September 02, 2020, 11:03:46 AM »
There’s truth in that. It’s a question of degrees. If you take the Kewish community in the Tri state area as a whole it’s a much larger number. If you would refuse to give a hechsher to places like Bagel Nosh and other unhealthy restaurants and didn’t allow stores to carry unhealthy food choices you’d easily save dozens of lives in Lakewood each year, but that’s obviously not a mechayev. The question is a what point it becomes one.
If you take the numbers of all of the Jewish communities in the Tri-State area as a whole than all of the causes of death you listed are responsible for perhaps a maximum of 5-10 per year (all vividly publicized by YWN)..

And the COVID deaths possibly exceed 1,000(!)
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #419 on: September 02, 2020, 11:07:17 AM »
The reason why none of these other risks are comparable is because those are all individual choices that affect only that individual.

Covid prevention measures are clearly to protect the community. The only other possible comparison is to motor vehicle accidents that have other involved parties, and there's a whole litany of rules there.
1) you don’t get to decide whether COVID kills you, only whether you lock yourself up at home or subject yourself to the mercy of everyone else’s precautions.
2) each of those are objectively preventable, and they are not at the mercy of others’ decision making.
Quote from: YitzyS
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