Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 523039 times)

Offline Jerseysteve

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #360 on: September 01, 2020, 09:56:23 PM »
Masks are very uncomfortable however יותר יש לאדם ליזהר עצמו שלא יזיק משלא יוזק, and for the sake of our Schools remaining open.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #361 on: September 01, 2020, 09:57:36 PM »
Do you think any of this would be preventable if everyone was wearing masks? You can't ignore the #1 tool we have at our disposal.
TBH I don't think that would solve the problem, that's why I think the letter my shul sent out is much more important than a mask mandate. It also (helps) solve the issue without effecting quality of life.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Euclid

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #362 on: September 01, 2020, 09:58:22 PM »
Instead of sitting on their hands all summer, schools should've been preparing for this possibility. Plexiglass dividers, proper thought out protocols etc.

Instead we are getting hasty, reactionary measures.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #363 on: September 01, 2020, 09:59:16 PM »
Masks have a significant impact on quality of life. Maybe while going to the store (especially while wearing the least effective mask available) it's not too terrible, but try teaching a class full of children while wearing a mask and making sure the children wear masks. I don't know about you, but I can't fathom enjoying a wedding while forced to wear a mask. What about while working out? To say masks have no effect  on quality of life is downright ridiculous.
If we only wore masks while shopping and when davening in minyanim centers, and stop the hefkeris at Simchas, it would already curtail the spread of the virus significantly.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #364 on: September 01, 2020, 10:02:51 PM »
How is lockdown even part of a rational conversation?
Ask him not me.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #365 on: September 01, 2020, 10:05:50 PM »
If we only wore masks while shopping and when davening in minyanim centers, and stop the hefkeris at Simchas, it would already curtail the spread of the virus significantly.
I didn't include minyanim in my list because I think that's a significant quality of life issue.

I really think we're barking up the wrong tree and trying to resolve the symptom but not fight the problem which is people who have significant reason to believe they can be spreading the virus yet choose to make believe nothing happened.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #366 on: September 01, 2020, 10:06:14 PM »
TBH I don't think that would solve the problem, that's why I think the letter my shul sent out is much more important than a mask mandate. It also (helps) solve the issue without effecting quality of life.

The issue with this virus is that there is a lot of spread prior to symptoms or positive test results. Take your shaitelmacher. She tested positive days after infecting a kallah. Knowing to self quarantine after experiencing symptoms probably wouldn't have helped there. Wearing a mask gives the kallah a very good chance of not getting infected, and an even better chance of not infecting her 10 friends. Who knows how many people got it from those 10 friends...

I get the discomfort. Stand outside with a mask in Florida in the middle of July or August... trust me, I get the discomfort. Even in optimal weather, it's tough. But when you look at the consequences your inaction can bring about, how is comfort a valid argument here?
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #367 on: September 01, 2020, 10:08:10 PM »
I don't know about you, but I can't fathom enjoying a wedding while forced to wear a mask.
Others can't fathom enjoying a wedding without "the הפקרות" Why should enjoying a wedding even be part of the calculation here?
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #368 on: September 01, 2020, 10:09:36 PM »
The issue with this virus is that there is a lot of spread prior to symptoms or positive test results. Take your shaitelmacher. She tested positive days after infecting a kallah. Knowing to self quarantine after experiencing symptoms probably wouldn't have helped there. Wearing a mask gives the kallah a very good chance of not getting infected, and an even better chance of not infecting her 10 friends. Who knows how many people got it from those 10 friends...
Take a step back, had the shaitel macher and/or kallah not buried their head in the sand so the wedding can go on uninhibited it we never would've gotten to a situation where the kallah passed it on. If you think the kallah who made believe nothing happened is going to wear a mask I have a bridge to sell you.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #369 on: September 01, 2020, 10:09:59 PM »
Masks have a significant impact on quality of life. Maybe while going to the store (especially while wearing the least effective mask available) it's not too terrible, but try teaching a class full of children while wearing a mask and making sure the children wear masks. I don't know about you, but I can't fathom enjoying a wedding while forced to wear a mask. What about while working out? To say masks have no effect  on quality of life is downright ridiculous.
I do have a different opinion than you, as I think masks aren’t too uncomfortable. Perhaps because I was wearing a mask around 3 weeks earlier than everyone else, and exclusively N95s, I adapted to them better. They were certainly uncomfortable early on but I adjusted and the looks I got were more uncomfortable ;). It also wasn’t political back then.

While I hear many grumbles I do think if one were to wear a mask for a week or two straight for many hours at a time they would get used to them to the point that they wouldn’t feel them, like glasses. I point to health care workers and workers in WalMart and other stores around town who wear them all day every day as proof that anyone can get used to it. I have a niggling feeling many complaining never gave it a fair shot, and probably had a prior opinion on masks before they through it through. Look no further than asking people how uncomfortable they feel wearing a mask is- I think more Republicans than Democrats would answer “very uncomfortable”. Then again, it works both ways. Daniel Kahneman has a name for this heuristic, where people who advocate abortion are generally opposed to capital punishment because they are categorized.

That said, I’ll give you that it may be more uncomfortable for some than others even after giving it a shot. I can’t comment on others’ comfort levels. Still, even if we can’t mandate masks everywhere, at least in stores and other places where it’s for a shorter time I think we should be strict. I hear your point about school and weddings, though weddings are a real problem.
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Offline ari3

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #370 on: September 01, 2020, 10:11:05 PM »
The problem is some here will jump to "everyone should wear masks" while claiming there is minimal impact on quality of life and the conversation comes to an abrupt end.
Almost all the recent cases have been tracked to weddings. Instead of adressing the issue of weddings everyone here is shouting "everyone wear masks". People don't want to wear masks all day period. Especially if that's not the problem. Addressing what actually is the problem would go much further in slowing the spread.

Problem is who is going to do something about reigning in the weddings. The Rabbonim and Rosh Yeshivos? I was at a chasuna last night with many well respected individuals in that category and they weren't wearing masks. The caterers? I don't see them doing anything? The doctors?

There is no pain to the economy, no lack of davening or other ruchniyus pain, no schools closed, nothing.

I was in an OOT community for a couple of days this summer where mask wearing is required in shul. It seemed to me most people (myself included) were spending more time adjusting their masks than concentrating on davening. I have a relative who is a rav OOT and he told me he is going to have to shorten the yomim noraim davening to the bare minimum because there is no way people are going to be able to wear a mask for a regular full yomim noraim davening.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #371 on: September 01, 2020, 10:13:17 PM »
Others can't fathom enjoying a wedding without "the הפקרות" Why should enjoying a wedding even be part of the calculation here?
@S209 said masks don't have a quality of life issue, that was part of my response. Once we agree they affect quality of life we can have a discussion on whether or not they're warranted.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #372 on: September 01, 2020, 10:17:48 PM »
I do have a different opinion than you, as I think masks aren’t too uncomfortable. Perhaps because I was wearing a mask around 3 weeks earlier than everyone else, and exclusively N95s, I adapted to them better. They were certainly uncomfortable early on but I adjusted and the looks I got were more uncomfortable ;). It also wasn’t political back then.

While I hear many grumbles I do think if one were to wear a mask for a week or two straight for many hours at a time they would get used to them to the point that they wouldn’t feel them, like glasses. I point to health care workers and workers in WalMart and other stores around town who wear them all day every day as proof that anyone can get used to it. I have a niggling feeling many complaining never gave it a fair shot, and probably had a prior opinion on masks before they through it through. Look no further than asking people how uncomfortable they feel wearing a mask is- I think more Republicans than Democrats would answer “very uncomfortable”. Then again, it works both ways. Daniel Kahneman has a name for this heuristic, where people who advocate abortion are generally opposed to capital punishment because they are categorized.

That said, I’ll give you that it may be more uncomfortable for some than others even after giving it a shot. I can’t comment on others’ comfort levels. Still, even if we can’t mandate masks everywhere, at least in stores and other places where it’s for a shorter time I think we should be strict. I hear your point about school and weddings, though weddings are a real problem.
I wore the Trump mask (which is much more breathable than anything else I tried) on the plane, and a few times (after "wrestling" with my kids where I exerted extra energy) I started getting a headache, almost as soon as I removed my mask (either to eat or just to breathe) the headache disappeared. After it happened twice I realized the mask was causing it.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Jerseysteve

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #373 on: September 01, 2020, 10:17:59 PM »
Bottom line is we should if there is common ground on stoping the הפקרות by weddings it should be done now - we can leave masks for another day.

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #374 on: September 01, 2020, 10:18:21 PM »
@S209 said masks don't have a quality of life issue, that was part of my response. Once we agree they affect quality of life we can have a discussion on whether or not they're warranted.
Anyone who can't understand how many would consider them very uncomfortable is being delusional. That said, the quality of life effect of masks is nowhere near that of other measures and extremely effective.
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #375 on: September 01, 2020, 10:19:29 PM »
Take a step back, had the shaitel macher and/or kallah not buried their head in the sand so the wedding can go on uninhibited it we never would've gotten to a situation where the kallah passed it on. If you think the kallah who made believe nothing happened is going to wear a mask I have a bridge to sell you.

You're working under the assumption that both the shaitelmacher and the kallah knew they were positive and kept going along like nothing happened. That may be the case, I don't know. But you're completely ignoring asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread.

And if everyone was wearing a mask, you can bet your bottom dollar that kallah isn't about to be a yotzei min haklal.
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #376 on: September 01, 2020, 10:20:29 PM »
there is no way people are going to be able to wear a mask for a regular full yomim noraim davening.
Meanwhile JCPL has been changing the street lights on my block to bigger and brighter ones so we should be able to see at outdoor minyanim on RH and YK.
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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #377 on: September 01, 2020, 10:22:30 PM »
I hear a lot of anti-wedding sentiment, yet it seems that most people here have been to a handful of weddings in the last month. It's like this discussion is purely hypothetical.
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Offline Jerseysteve

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #378 on: September 01, 2020, 10:24:26 PM »
I hear a lot of anti-wedding sentiment, yet it seems that most people here have been to a handful of weddings in the last month. It's like this discussion is purely hypothetical.
I have been however from a risk/reward perspective it is not worth it. I would faster be מיקל on kids playing together and School.

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #379 on: September 01, 2020, 10:25:37 PM »
Almost all the recent cases have been tracked to weddings. Instead of adressing the issue of weddings everyone here is shouting "everyone wear masks".

Lies. All have first and foremost called for the lessening of recklessness at simchos. It is another opportunity to call for masking as well, yes.

People don't want to wear masks all day period. Especially if that's not the problem. Addressing what actually is the problem would go much further in slowing the spread.

Problem is who is going to do something about reigning in the weddings. The Rabbonim and Rosh Yeshivos? I was at a chasuna last night with many well respected individuals in that category and they weren't wearing masks. The caterers? I don't see them doing anything? The doctors?

The answer should be Rabbanim upon the advice of doctors. The doctors have spoken. Dr. Liebowitz from Kimball has been on the phone for days now yelling at people to move their weddings outdoors and smaller.
 
I was in an OOT community for a couple of days this summer where mask wearing is required in shul. It seemed to me most people (myself included) were spending more time adjusting their masks than concentrating on davening. I have a relative who is a rav OOT and he told me he is going to have to shorten the yomim noraim davening to the bare minimum because there is no way people are going to be able to wear a mask for a regular full yomim noraim davening.

Are you suggesting that workers in WalMart, nursing homes, every major retail store and pharmacy, doctors offices, hospitals, and pretty much all indoor functions nearby who wear masks for 8+ hour shifts are just adjusting their masks all day and can’t sit for a couple of hours?

Again, I can’t really pasken how much anything affects one’s quality of life. Everyone is different. I do still think most haven’t given it a proper chance. I guess it might have to be a trade off between how uncomfortable one find’s a mask and how important being in Shul for a whole regular Yomim Noraim davening is.
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