Lakewood covid cases

[S209]

@S209 said masks don't have a quality of life issue, that was part of my response. Once we agree they affect quality of life we can have a discussion on whether or not they're warranted.

I didn’t say they have no issue, I said the effect is minimal. I can agree that others may find it to be more of an imposition.

[aygart]

Lies. All have first and foremost called for the lessening of recklessness at simchos. It is another opportunity to call for masking as well, yes.

The answer should be Rabbanim upon the advice of doctors. The doctors have spoken. Dr. Liebowitz from Kimball has been on the phone for days now yelling at people to move their weddings outdoors and smaller.
 
Are you suggesting that workers in WalMart, nursing homes, every major retail store and pharmacy, doctors offices, hospitals, and pretty much all indoor functions nearby who wear masks for 8+ hour shifts are just adjusting their masks all day and can’t sit for a couple of hours?

Again, I can’t really pasken how much anything affects one’s quality of life. Everyone is different. I do still think most haven’t given it a proper chance. I guess it might have to be a trade off between how uncomfortable one find’s a mask and how important being in Shul for a whole regular Yomim Noraim davening is.

The same rabbomin that people don't listen to their anti-vax positions will be the most influential now.

[avromie7]

You're working under the assumption that both the shaitelmacher and the kallah knew they were positive and kept going along like nothing happened. That may be the case, I don't know. But you're completely ignoring asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread.

And if everyone was wearing a mask, you can bet your bottom dollar that kallah isn't about to be a yotzei min haklal.

From what I understand the kallah knew the shaitel macher tested positive, and although she had significant contact with the shaitel macher she decided to go ahead with the full blown wedding without even letting anyone know she was exposed. I know I'm not discussing asymptomatic because most presymptomatic people know they were exposed and people who don't know they were exposed don't seem to be the driving force behind the major increase in cases.

I should clarify that I meant if you thought this family was going to have a wedding where everyone wears masks I  have a bridge to sell you.

[S209]

From what I understand the kallah knew the shaitel macher tested positive, and although she had significant contact with the shaitel macher she decided to go ahead with the full blown wedding without even letting anyone know she was exposed. I know I'm not discussing asymptomatic because most presymptomatic people know they were exposed and people who don't know they were exposed don't seem to be the driving force behind the major increase in cases.

I should clarify that I meant if you thought this family was going to have a wedding where everyone wears masks I  have a bridge to sell you.

I know a family that shockingly made part of their wedding outdoors and smaller last week because of someone who tested positive, despite their fiercely anti-corona opinions

[Lurker]

I should clarify that I meant if you thought this family was going to have a wedding where everyone wears masks I  have a bridge to sell you.

Social convention is an amazing thing. When you create a culture that values public safety over massive chassunahs, everyone falls into line. However, when you have a culture that denies there is any threat to public safety and insists on living life like everything is normal, then you're right: there is no way people are going to change their simcha one iota.

[avromie7]

I know a family that shockingly made part of their wedding outdoors and smaller last week because of someone who tested positive, despite their fiercely anti-corona opinions

But clearly this family did not, and if you tried to make them all wear masks they wouldn't either. (I have no idea who this family is, I heard about this from a relative of someone who was infected at the wedding)

[aygart]

I wonder what Rav Gissinger ztl would have said about making a hachnosas sefer Torah indoors now.

[Yard sale]

Weddings are the known specific issue right now. Focus on weddings. Not Shuls. Not masks. Weddings. It’s specific. It’s easy to explain in one sentence. It’s unambiguous. It makes sense to anyone who isn’t on a different planet. Period. כל המוסיף גורע as well intentioned as they may be.

[yitzgar]

Weddings are the known specific issue right now. Focus on weddings. Not Shuls. Not masks. Weddings. It’s specific. It’s easy to explain in one sentence. It’s unambiguous. It makes sense to anyone who isn’t on a different planet. Period. כל המוסיף גורע as well intentioned as they may be.

This makes no sense. Once those people are out in the community, they will spread it through shuls etc.

[Yard sale]

When trying to claim that somehow Denmark has it worse than Sweden, all you pointed to was “trend”.
When trying to claim it could never happen to Lakewood, all you said was that you need emunah to believe otherwise. Suggesting otherwise was hysterical and fear-mongering.
When trying to claim the US was overstating the infection growth, you said only percent positive matters.
When trying to claim reopening wouldn’t matter, you said it hasn’t happened yet in Florida, Israel, and Georgia.
When trying to claim Florida wasn’t so bad, you said only deaths matter.
When trying to claim deaths were misrepresented, you said only new hospitalizations matter.


Lakewood has months with 0-3 cases a week.
3 weeks ago there was suddenly a spike: 12 cases.
2 weeks ago, it doubled to 25.
Last week, it doubled to 50.
It’s Monday night, and we’ve already surpassed 35 confirmed cases. I’ll take better than even odds we’re going to break 100 this week. You just suggested as much yourself.

Now you’re claiming it’s not “community spread” (with zero evidence), and maybe there’s enough immunity to stop it from exploding like March (a straw man, as March is not the cut off of it being too bad to tolerate. March was the single worst month for the frum community in a century. Many fewer hospitalizations and deaths warrant a drastic response).

When does your circular logic finally show you that it’s time to act? Many doctors have now come out on the record, as well as Hatzalah, despite the fear of backlash. It seems some shuls have started to spread the message as well, though the silence and complete noncompliance of many is deafening.

If this is not enough, what is? Is it 1000 cases? 40 hospitalizations? 2 deaths? 20 cases of proven “community spread”?

If there’s any lesson we really *should* learn from March, it’s that the speed at which this virus doubles exponentially warrants acting *before* it seems justified, not *after*.

They are all metrics. Some have more value than others. The numbers and manner of transmission in Lakewood as far as we know merit concern, not hysteria. This is not March and April all over again and will not be. Take a deep breath and breath out slowly.

[avromie7]

This makes no sense. Once those people are out in the community, they will spread it through shuls etc.

The fact is almost all the spread is traced back to weddings. If you want you can try to figure out why, but there's no denying it.

[Yard sale]

This makes no sense. Once those people are out in the community, they will spread it through shuls etc.

We are not seeing sustained significant spread in shuls over the past few weeks even when known positives have attended shul. We are seeing it by weddings.

[Euclid]

I wonder what Rav Gissinger ztl would have said about making a hachnosas sefer Torah indoors now.

His presence and leadership has been sorely missed throughout this pandemic. When you have communal leaders scared of "backlash"...

[S209]

We are not seeing sustained significant spread in shuls over the past few weeks even when known positives have attended shul. We are seeing it by weddings.

There weren’t many confirmed cases wandering through the city earlier. When confirmed positive cases are attending shuls, schools, stores, and all manner of indoor venues it is inevitable that spread will take place.

They are all metrics. Some have more value than others. The numbers and manner of transmission in Lakewood as far as we know merit concern, not hysteria. This is not March and April all over again and will not be. Take a deep breath and breath out slowly.

So do we have you on the record that concern is warranted? Unbelievable. I can’t believe the hysterical fear mongering you’re encouraging. How dare you suggest we all lock down?!

[ari3]

Lies. All have first and foremost called for the lessening of recklessness at simchos. It is another opportunity to call for masking as well, yes.

Three of the longest practicing and most respected doctors in Lakewood wrote a letter raising the alarm about the recent uptick and mentioned masks and nothing about chasunos.
Lies?

[Yard sale]

There weren’t many confirmed cases wandering through the city earlier. When confirmed positive cases are attending shuls, schools, stores, and all manner of indoor venues it is inevitable that spread will take place.So do we have you on the record that concern is warranted? Unbelievable. I can’t believe the hysterical fear mongering you’re encouraging. How dare you suggest we all lock down?!

Concern.

[yuneeq]

Three of the longest practicing and most respected doctors in Lakewood wrote a letter raising the alarm about the recent uptick and mentioned masks and nothing about chasunos.
Lies?

The first 2 doctors in the letter recommend restrictions that go much further than not attending weddings. And Dr Shanik writes in his first point to avoid social gatherings, and he didn’t mean you should avoid going to shul.

[Moshe123]

‏חשיפה: מרן שר התורה הגר"ח קנייבסקי הורה כעת למספר ישיבות, לא לעשות בדיקות קורונה, זאת בשל הביטול תורה העצום שנוצר מהבלבול כתוצאה מהבדיקות והכנסתם של אלפי צעירים שאינם בסיכון לבידוד.

https://twitter.com/yaircherki/status/1301097527593365506?s=19

R' Chaim going with the Belzer shita in Israel on covid. Not really shocked, but still surprised. It's very hard to argue on how we should handle covid, when gedolei Yisrael who know what's going on, still think we should continue on in life and not follow panicked Dr. orders.

[aygart]

We are not seeing sustained significant spread in shuls over the past few weeks even when known positives have attended shul. We are seeing it by weddings.

Is this true? The ability to trace back to weddings includes people who caught it at weddings spreading it elsewhere.

[aygart]

‏חשיפה: מרן שר התורה הגר"ח קנייבסקי הורה כעת למספר ישיבות, לא לעשות בדיקות קורונה, זאת בשל הביטול תורה העצום שנוצר מהבלבול כתוצאה מהבדיקות והכנסתם של אלפי צעירים שאינם בסיכון לבידוד.

https://twitter.com/yaircherki/status/1301097527593365506?s=19

R' Chaim going with the Belzer shita in Israel on covid. Not really shocked, but still surprised. It's very hard to argue on how we should handle covid, when gedolei Yisrael who know what's going on, still think we should continue on in life and not follow panicked Dr. orders.

Even if the tweet is true, it does NOT say live life as usual. That is simply untrue.