Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 522587 times)

Online NTorch

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #940 on: September 11, 2020, 01:37:33 PM »
Of course they are uncomfortable, but it's not nearly as big a deal as it's being made out to be. I couldn't wear a kn95 because I coulsnt breathe in it, so I wear either a cloth mask or a surgical mask. It's not great, but it's really not the biggest deal in the world.

Agree 100% - I lain Shabbos morning every two or three weeks and give a regular daf shiur as well. I experimented with surgical masks, cloth masks (get far too hot and can't breathe by shlishi) and the KN95 which I found to be the most comfortable. My AC is a Morah in a BY and she got a mask guard which sits under a surgical mask and keeps it away from sitting directly on the mouth, but the mask is still sealed completely to the face.

Yes its a nuisance, but we have been making it work for shul since late May when we were allowed to go back in.

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood cases
« Reply #941 on: September 11, 2020, 01:41:18 PM »
Yes you have been the exception not the rule.
I do have a different opinion than you, as I think masks aren’t too uncomfortable. Perhaps because I was wearing a mask around 3 weeks earlier than everyone else, and exclusively N95s, I adapted to them better. They were certainly uncomfortable early on but I adjusted and the looks I got were more uncomfortable ;). It also wasn’t political back then.

While I hear many grumbles I do think if one were to wear a mask for a week or two straight for many hours at a time they would get used to them to the point that they wouldn’t feel them, like glasses. I point to health care workers and workers in WalMart and other stores around town who wear them all day every day as proof that anyone can get used to it. I have a niggling feeling many complaining never gave it a fair shot, and probably had a prior opinion on masks before they through it through. Look no further than asking people how uncomfortable they feel wearing a mask is- I think more Republicans than Democrats would answer “very uncomfortable”. Then again, it works both ways. Daniel Kahneman has a name for this heuristic, where people who advocate abortion are generally opposed to capital punishment because they are categorized.

That said, I’ll give you that it may be more uncomfortable for some than others even after giving it a shot. I can’t comment on others’ comfort levels. Still, even if we can’t mandate masks everywhere, at least in stores and other places where it’s for a shorter time I think we should be strict. I hear your point about school and weddings, though weddings are a real problem.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #942 on: September 11, 2020, 02:12:37 PM »
With apologies to @Euclid for continuing the mask discussion here...

1) We all know people who take Judaism to an extreme. I'm not referring to hiddurim, I'm talking about making shtark look OTD. You know those guys that even the Rov or Rosh Yeshiva tells them to take a breath and dial it down a bit? No one ever points to those guys and says I'm dropping Judaism because they're too extreme. So let's stop pointing to grandma alone in a car with a mask as if that's a valid excuse.

2) Others have made the point that as religious Jews, discomfort in dress is second nature to us. It doesn't stop us from doing what we believe is right or necessary.

3) Medically, there is no argument not to wear the mask. Maybe on a case by case basis, but most certainly not on a mass scale.

What this all boils down to is there is no reason not to wear a mask other than personal hergesh. If someone is not inclined to care, regardless of what excuses they may come up with and how many times you disprove them, no argument will change their mind. You can't help someone who doesn't want help.

With all that in mind, bli neder I'll be stepping away from the mask conversations, unless someone has a legitimate question or study that warrants discussion on the mask thread. K'siva Va'Chasima Tova!
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Online Euclid

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Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #943 on: September 11, 2020, 02:23:00 PM »
Back to the more realistic topics, I wonder how many people will take this letter and its emphasis on antibodies and mild sickness, and seek out someone who has covid so that they can purposely get infected.

The emphasis is on reducing as much spiritual and physical upheaval as possible - they say everyone should get themselves tested.....for antibodies. (The obvious implication, as @Yard sale mentioned, is to avoid other types of testing.)

@ExGingi would be happy about the tone of this letter.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 02:31:51 PM by Euclid »

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #944 on: September 11, 2020, 02:35:34 PM »
Are masks worse than wearing hats and jackets in the summer or for women to wear wigs and long sleeves?
Yes
Yes you have been the exception not the rule.
+1000

You've been pretty wishy washy about your acknowledgement of other peoples discomfort.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #945 on: September 11, 2020, 02:36:43 PM »
With apologies to @Euclid for continuing the mask discussion here...

1) We all know people who take Judaism to an extreme. I'm not referring to hiddurim, I'm talking about making shtark look OTD. You know those guys that even the Rov or Rosh Yeshiva tells them to take a breath and dial it down a bit? No one ever points to those guys and says I'm dropping Judaism because they're too extreme. So let's stop pointing to grandma alone in a car with a mask as if that's a valid excuse.
When that's the guy demanding masks, everyone ignores him.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline etech0

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #946 on: September 11, 2020, 02:44:14 PM »
Are masks worse than wearing hats and jackets in the summer or for women to wear wigs and long sleeves?
Yes
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #947 on: September 11, 2020, 02:56:02 PM »
Yes
Yes
Are you seriously saying you understand how daunting it is for a woman becoming frum(mer) to commit to cover her hair completely, forever, at all times? And are convinced that that’s easier than committing temporarily to wear masks in some situations?
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #948 on: September 11, 2020, 02:57:37 PM »
When that's the only guy demanding masks, everyone ignores him.
FTFY

Right, but it isn’t.. the whole world is wearing them. You’re just pointing out an extreme outlier and magnifying it as if they’re the only ones who wear masks, which is untrue and a straw man.
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Offline etech0

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #949 on: September 11, 2020, 03:01:38 PM »
Are you seriously saying you understand how daunting it is for a woman becoming frum(mer) to commit to cover her hair completely, forever, at all times? And are convinced that that’s easier than committing temporarily to wear masks in some situations?
The original question did not mention becoming frummer.
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #950 on: September 11, 2020, 03:04:28 PM »
The original question did not mention becoming frummer.
While trying to get maskless people to wear masks..

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #951 on: September 11, 2020, 03:05:18 PM »
The original question did not mention becoming frummer.
Then you are being disingenuous, because you’re saying it’s easier to do that only because you’ve been brought up to do so your whole life that way vs. something that’s new and not widely done your whole life.

An appropriate comparison to the question of (dis)comfort of a mask would be someone newly committing to cover their hair.
While trying to get maskless people to wear masks..
+1 If you’re saying what I think you are
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Online Euclid

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #952 on: September 11, 2020, 03:06:15 PM »
Guys, seriously. This debate is over. This letter is the final nail, and no matter how much we disagree, Lakewood isn't going to be wearing masks for the foreseeable future.

Offline etech0

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #953 on: September 11, 2020, 03:06:53 PM »
The average woman does not cover her hair for the first 20+ years of her life
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #954 on: September 11, 2020, 03:07:37 PM »
FTFY

Right, but it isn’t.. the whole world is wearing them. You’re just pointing out an extreme outlier and magnifying it as if they’re the only ones who wear masks, which is untrue and a straw man.
They're the only ones demanding it.
Then you are being disingenuous, because you’re saying it’s easier to do that only because you’ve been brought up to do so your whole life that way vs. something that’s new and not widely done your whole life.

An appropriate comparison to the question of (dis)comfort of a mask would be someone newly committing to cover their hair.
Answering the question is not disingenuous, claiming the original question is different than what was asked is disingenuous.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #955 on: September 11, 2020, 03:08:06 PM »
The average woman did not cover her hair for the first 20+ years of her life
But has been indoctrinated for 20 years that it’s a must, and it makes you look prettier, and that everybody does it. If that’s not a factor than how would it matter to the original question if they are becoming newly frum or not?
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #956 on: September 11, 2020, 03:09:13 PM »
They're the only ones demanding it.

No, they’re really not. I don’t wear a mask in my car alone. Nor do most people who would like greater compliance generally.

Answering the question is not disingenuous, claiming the original question is different than what was asked is disingenuous.
No, you answered a different question than what was asked. If your answer was true *only under specific circumstances* then it did not answer the original question honestly..
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #957 on: September 11, 2020, 03:10:20 PM »
Then you are being disingenuous, because you’re saying it’s easier to do that only because you’ve been brought up to do so your whole life that way vs. something that’s new and not widely done your whole life.

An appropriate comparison to the question of (dis)comfort of a mask would be someone newly committing to cover their hair.+1 If you’re saying what I think you are
Exactly, but that's the fallacy of his comparison. No-one ever underestimated the hardship of one becoming more frum, while many still underestimate the hardship of wearing masks.

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #958 on: September 11, 2020, 03:12:26 PM »
Then you are being disingenuous, because you’re saying it’s easier to do that only because you’ve been brought up to do so your whole life that way vs. something that’s new and not widely done your whole life.

An appropriate comparison to the question of (dis)comfort of a mask would be someone newly committing to cover their hair.+1 If you’re saying what I think you are

There are a lot more people who began wearing masks in recent months that there are who began covering their hair and the like in years. You are making my point for me.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #959 on: September 11, 2020, 03:13:34 PM »
Exactly, but this works against his comparison. No-one ever underestimated the hardship of one becoming more frum, while many still underestimate the hardship of wearing masks.
However, based on their answers, it seemed as though they were underestimating the hardship of the general act of covering your hair relative to the hardship of the general act of wearing a mask. Unless of course they meant the answer to only apply in specific circumstances, which is disingenuous.
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