Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 522560 times)

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #960 on: September 11, 2020, 03:14:02 PM »
There are a lot more people who began wearing masks in recent months that there are who began covering their hair and the like in years. You are making my point for me.
I’m not understanding, how does that show us how difficult it is? Wouldn’t that contraindicate what you’re saying?
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Online avromie7

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #961 on: September 11, 2020, 03:14:43 PM »
No, they’re really not. I don’t wear a mask in my car alone. Nor do most people who would like greater compliance generally.
Just because you don't check every possible box doesn't mean you're not a mask crazy. You're ready to kill an infant for the sake of everyone wearing masks, that's pretty extreme in my book.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #962 on: September 11, 2020, 03:16:51 PM »
I’m not understanding, how does that show us how difficult it is? Wouldn’t that contraindicate what you’re saying?

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. You basically made your argument into "S/he made this tremendous sacrifice to become more frum so now you can at least wear a mask". Not a very convincing argument.
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #963 on: September 11, 2020, 03:16:53 PM »
Let me tell you something. I just posed this question to someone who started covering their hair 2 years ago. She lives in a smaller Jewish community and wears a mask quite often. She obviously covers her hair more often than that, though.

When I asked her this question, she laughed as hard as I’ve heard in a long time..
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Online avromie7

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #964 on: September 11, 2020, 03:17:50 PM »
However, based on their answers, it seemed as though they were underestimating the hardship of the general act of covering your hair relative to the hardship of the general act of wearing a mask. Unless of course they meant the answer to only apply in specific circumstances, which is disingenuous.
To assume the question only applies to a minority in a specific circumstance and then have the audacity to accuse me of only answering about a specific circumstance when I'm talking about the overwhelming majority is disingenuous.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #965 on: September 11, 2020, 03:19:22 PM »
Let me tell you something. I just posed this question to someone who started covering their hair 2 years ago. She lives in a smaller Jewish community and wears a mask quite often. She obviously covers her hair more often than that, though.

When I asked her this question, she laughed as hard as I’ve heard in a long time..

I am absolutely certain that the sacrifice of someone who begins covering her hair is many times more than that of wearing a mask regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable it is. Now what?
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #966 on: September 11, 2020, 03:19:27 PM »
I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. You basically made your argument into "S/he made this tremendous sacrifice to become more frum so now you can at least wear a mask". Not a very convincing argument.
That’s not what I said at all. Some posters answered the question of relative difficulty by saying it’s flat out harder to wear a mask. I call BS- that seems absurd. Saying things like that makes me indeed question the extreme difficulty people are claiming..
Just because you don't check every possible box doesn't mean you're not a mask crazy. You're ready to kill an infant for the sake of everyone wearing masks, that's pretty extreme in my book.
I don’t remember saying that I’m ready to kill an infant for the sake of everyone wearing masks but I’ll take your word for it :)
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Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #967 on: September 11, 2020, 03:20:31 PM »
Question: How beneficial is it for one individual to wear a mask when the remaining 249 people are not?
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #968 on: September 11, 2020, 03:23:07 PM »
To assume the question only applies to a minority in a specific circumstance and then have the audacity to accuse me of only answering about a specific circumstance when I'm talking about the overwhelming majority is disingenuous.
Sorry, what did you assume the question was about? I assumed the question was about the relative physical difficulty of the actual act. The physical difficulty of the act does not change based on extenuating circumstances, no matter how common it is.

Hence, I don’t think saying *the physical act of* covering ones hair all day is clearly easier than wearing a mask when indoors for extended periods of time is intellectually honest.

I am absolutely certain that the sacrifice of someone who begins covering her hair is many times more than that of wearing a mask regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable it is. Now what?
That was not the question either. @shaulyaakov made a fair point unless one believes the physical imposition of wearing masks is clearly worse.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 03:27:59 PM by S209 »
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Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #969 on: September 11, 2020, 03:23:44 PM »
That’s not what I said at all. Some posters answered the question of relative difficulty by saying it’s flat out harder to wear a mask. I call BS- that seems absurd. Saying things like that makes me indeed question the extreme difficulty people are claiming..I don’t remember saying that I’m ready to kill an infant for the sake of everyone wearing masks but I’ll take your word for it :)
Here you had both a man and a woman disagreeing with your characterization of mask wearing as being less uncomfortable than hats and jackets or shaitels. You don't like their opinion? Fine. Don't expect to convince anyone by telling them that their feelings of discomfort don't matter because they grew up with it.
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #970 on: September 11, 2020, 03:26:13 PM »
Here you had both a man and a woman disagreeing with your characterization of mask wearing as being less uncomfortable than hats and jackets or shaitels. You don't like their opinion? Fine. Don't expect to convince anyone by telling them that their feelings of discomfort don't matter because they grew up with it.
Actually, it seems both of them subsequently (indirectly) admitted that it was only the extenuating circumstances which led them to that answer.. which was sort of my point. They weren’t answering the actual question.
Question: How beneficial is it for one individual to wear a mask when the remaining 249 people are not?
Answer: Usually not very, but more than zero.

If the mask wearer is infected, a very large amount. Just ask @ExGingi about the experience of his guests.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #971 on: September 11, 2020, 03:27:56 PM »
Actually, it seems both of them subsequently admitted that it was only the extenuating circumstances which led them to that answer.. which was sort of my point. They weren’t answering the actual question.Answer: Usually not very, but more than zero.

If the mask wearer is infected, a very large amount. Just ask @ExGingi about the experience of his guests.
Actually I think even a 3 ply mask is close to 100% effective in protecting it's wearer from infection. Just because the particles can technically make it in doesn't mean it's likely to happen.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #972 on: September 11, 2020, 03:29:49 PM »
Actually, it seems both of them subsequently (indirectly) admitted that it was only the extenuating circumstances which led them to that answer.. which was sort of my point. They weren’t answering the actual question.


You seem more concerned about being right than about being convincing.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #973 on: September 11, 2020, 03:30:54 PM »
Actually I think even a 3 ply mask is close to 100% effective in protecting it's wearer from infection. Just because the particles can technically make it in doesn't mean it's likely to happen.
So you are arguing for mask wearing to protect the wearer? THere are many studies that call that into question.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #974 on: September 11, 2020, 03:33:51 PM »
With the exception of edge cases of severe sensory discomfort (which is always dealt with on a case by case basis), we wouldn't let a woman who feelz like showing up to shul on rosh Hashanah in pants and a tank top to come that way. We wouldn't let a man come in an undershirt and shorts, even if wearing a dress shirt is uncomfortable. When people are in our public spaces, we expect them to adhere to the socially excepted dress code.

I don't understand why masks is the line we can't cross. The only difference I can think of is one is viewed as important and necessary, and one is not.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #975 on: September 11, 2020, 03:41:39 PM »
My point here isn't to say that masks are more or less of a Halachic requirement than tznius. My point is it's not an intellectually honest argument to say that we can't tell people to wear masks in shul since they are too uncomfortable when there's a host of other dress code requirements that are arguably as uncomfortable or more uncomfortable than masks.

Offline etech0

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #976 on: September 11, 2020, 03:42:26 PM »
Sorry, what did you assume the question was about? I assumed the question was about the relative physical difficulty of the actual act. The physical difficulty of the act does not change based on extenuating circumstances, no matter how common it is.
Nor does it depend on whether or not someone was raised assuming that one day they will assume that minhag.
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Offline etech0

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #977 on: September 11, 2020, 03:43:20 PM »
Actually, it seems both of them subsequently (indirectly) admitted that it was only the extenuating circumstances which led them to that answer
which extenuating circumstances?
I was solely referring to physical discomfort.
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #978 on: September 11, 2020, 03:46:30 PM »
You seem more concerned about being right than about being convincing.
Correct. That ship has sailed, at least for now. Now if we could at least have an honest intellectual debate, where logic prevails over emotion, perhaps we can reach a consensus.
which extenuating circumstances?
I was solely referring to physical discomfort.
Then you believe that someone who was not indoctrinated from birth to do so would agree that the physical act of covering one’s hair all day is easier and less restrictive than the act of wearing a mask situationally? If so, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. I thought you retracted that when you posted this
The original question did not mention becoming frummer.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 03:49:40 PM by S209 »
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Offline SayWhat

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #979 on: September 11, 2020, 03:46:49 PM »
Making decisions based on "where we are holding now" is extremely shortsighted. Look at what is going on in Israel now, and remember "everybody" had it there already.

The virus acts like a snowball rolling down a hill, it starts off very slowly but then picks up speed and gets larger. Are we looking at a snowball coming down the hill now? I don't know the answer and neither does anybody else. But there is a possibility that it is, and if it is "coming down the hill" then by the time we realize it, it will be coming too fast and too large to stop it. I think it is safe to say that in Israel it "came down the hill", and the restrictions that were put back in place were too little too late and they are facing a complete shutdown now.   

So what are we saying? That what is happening now in Israel can't happen here? Won't happen here? We don't care if it happens here?

It is important for everyone to wear masks indoors, social distance, cut out the weddings etc. not because the current circumstances warrant it, but because there is a reasonable possibility that we are heading for a very dangerous situation. I daven everyday that this small uptick will be just that and fade away. But to deny the possibility that we are only a few weeks behind Israel again is being very naive.

Like I have said before, if I'm wrong I'll be the happiest guy around, but C"V if I am right and you are wrong ...?