Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 160599 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1680 on: September 27, 2020, 11:24:27 AM »
From what I heard they believe that virtually everyone there has been heavily exposed between the many mesivta bochurim that had it as well as the beis medrash. The covid section is, in their estimation,  almost just going through the motions.

Heavily exposed=excuse to do whatever I want
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1681 on: September 27, 2020, 11:24:48 AM »
FTFY
Herd Infection = Herd Immunity.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1682 on: September 27, 2020, 11:26:17 AM »
Heavily exposed=excuse to do whatever I want
I just keep coming back to this. Are they willfully misinterpreting what exposure is?

Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1683 on: September 27, 2020, 11:27:46 AM »
Herd Infection = potential future Herd Immunity.
FTFY
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1684 on: September 27, 2020, 11:29:31 AM »
Thankfully I have a personal rov whom I trust, this is the rov of my shul.

I did have a conversation with him. He brought up a bunch of silly arguments about masks but then explained where it's really coming from. He said hishtadlus is a chiyuv but it doesn't accomplish anything. Right now, his daas torah says there's no shchichi hezeika and therefore masks are not part of the hishtadlus. And I should stop trying to play god.

So yeah.

If that's his daas Torah and his gadol hador, then he has על מי לסמוך. This is how klal yisroel works.

I'm assuming he went through the different tzedadim and data thoroughly with someone who he considers to be יפתח בדורנו

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1685 on: September 27, 2020, 11:34:45 AM »
If that's his daas Torah and his gadol hador, then he has על מי לסמוך. This is how klal yisroel works.

I'm assuming he went through the different tzedadim and data thoroughly with someone who he considers to be יפתח בדורנו
It's כנגד שכל הישר
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1686 on: September 27, 2020, 11:37:28 AM »
From what I heard they believe that virtually everyone there has been heavily exposed between the many mesivta bochurim that had it as well as the beis medrash. The covid section is, in their estimation,  almost just going through the motions.
I have heard this of a bunch of places. The bigger problem is that includes places with Yungeleit who go about their lives as normal. From first hand experience.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1687 on: September 27, 2020, 11:38:52 AM »
From what I heard they believe that virtually everyone there has been heavily exposed between the many mesivta bochurim that had it as well as the beis medrash. The covid section is, in their estimation,  almost just going through the motions.

Which wouldmean of course that they are telling everyone there to quarantine after Yom Kippur, right?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline bhoaem

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1688 on: September 27, 2020, 11:39:36 AM »
I’m aware of quite a few Rabbanim in Lakewood who wear masks personally and encourage others to do so as well, but do not force it.

Rabbi Zimbal from Westgate does and has been for some time. I hear of R Micha Cohen from Oakley Hills, R’ Yitzchok Sorotzkin, and R Yerucham. Can anyone confirm/deny these?
R' Yitzchak Sorotzkin had a corona sukka (plexiglass) for rosh hashanah with separate entrance and cordoned off section for his wife. He did daven musaf for the amud (not in the sukka) without a mask. By Oleinu his sons wore masks and gloves to help him. They had a bimah mechitza and he wore a mask to get an aliyah. (Didnt see if he wore the mask while making the bracha)

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1689 on: September 27, 2020, 11:41:50 AM »
It's כנגד שכל הישר

דעת בעל הבתים נגד דעת תורה

What am I supposed to say? I don't understand it either (and it eats me up that I see people and communities systemically engaged in activity that seems to me to be something inevitable to result in unnecessary imminent tragic deaths, for very little benefit). However, klal yisroel is set up with a mesora of listening to daas Torah even when they tell you to jump (assuming the one who advised as such has accurate data and is worthy of the title of daas Torah).

לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם

(Note: my daas Torah does not think this is a joke. At all. However, if a legitimate gadol says otherwise, I respect his adherents who follow him in everything else for following in this too. Obviously, one who cherry picks psakim for his convenience is possibly a rotzeach if he infects someone due to negligence.)

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1690 on: September 27, 2020, 11:48:24 AM »
The same guy:

*2 weeks ago* “Masks don’t work, anyway it’s fake positives, there’s herd immunity”
*last week* “Yes I was exposed and told to isolate but I’m not, everyone is exposed anyway, it’s everywhere”
*today* “Yes I have corona, but don’t worry- I’m wearing a mask!”


- From multiple people over the last 2 weeks.
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1691 on: September 27, 2020, 12:04:52 PM »
The same guy:

*2 weeks ago* “Masks don’t work, anyway it’s fake positives, there’s herd immunity”
*last week* “Yes I was exposed and told to isolate but I’m not, everyone is exposed anyway, it’s everywhere”
*today* “Yes I have corona, but don’t worry- I’m wearing a mask!”


- From multiple people over the last 2 weeks.
Give them credit for wearing a mask.

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1692 on: September 27, 2020, 12:06:15 PM »
דעת בעל הבתים נגד דעת תורה

What am I supposed to say? I don't understand it either (and it eats me up that I see people and communities systemically engaged in activity that seems to me to be something inevitable to result in unnecessary imminent tragic deaths, for very little benefit). However, klal yisroel is set up with a mesora of listening to daas Torah even when they tell you to jump (assuming the one who advised as such has accurate data and is worthy of the title of daas Torah).

לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם

(Note: my daas Torah does not think this is a joke. At all. However, if a legitimate gadol says otherwise, I respect his adherents who follow him in everything else for following in this too. Obviously, one who cherry picks psakim for his convenience is possibly a rotzeach if he infects someone due to negligence.)

This is not the yiddishkeit that I was mikabel from my rabbeim, including one of the זקני ראשי ישיבה in America. I was encouraged to directly question his eitzos and hadracha until it made sense to me and he would never ever give over a מילתא בלא טאמא and certainly not when it goes against what every בר שכל knows.
Google Sheet with Lakewood Covid numbers in profile for those interested.

Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1693 on: September 27, 2020, 12:09:58 PM »
This is not the yiddishkeit that I was mikabel from my rabbeim, including one of the זקני ראשי ישיבה in America. I was encouraged to directly question his eitzos and hadracha until it made sense to me and he would never ever give over a מילתא בלא טאמא and certainly not when it goes against what every בר שכל knows.
This is part of a PM conversation I was having

They are convinced it’s a weaker strain, herd immunity, the flu, masks don’t work, the economy, doctors killing people, false positive, no asymptomatic spread, whatever you hear from people on the street. When there’s an information imbalance or obfuscation (something that is clearly happening) that you believe is influencing the decision you can remove that from the equation of generally trusting a Rav on matters that have all of the factors laid out.

You may ask, why doesn’t he ask a doctor? He probably doesn’t trust doctors in this regard because some people high up in the hierarchy are shoving their prior agendas vis a vis the medical establishment down a more receptive audience’s throats. Remember, nobody *wants* to believe they need to disrupt their lives, so it’s easy enough.
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #1694 on: September 27, 2020, 12:10:54 PM »
A relative asked me why I even tested for covid when my child had symptoms; they said that in their neighborhood "everyone" has it now and they assume they have it; so it's not even a shaila whether to go to shul...

People really need to look up the definition of "everyone".