Lakewood covid cases

[PlatinumGuy]

Source for where someone advocated for a lockdown, and source for where you refuted that person?

Full lockdown = not eating open cake in the coffee room, and if you think otherwise you’re hot headed.

[yuneeq]

Upthread.
I'm logging off.

While you're out, find more hay to sustain your straw man.

[ae123]

This is what you callLOL

Ok, I didn't log off yet.
My point is - I made my point.
Mature people can process the information I presented and add it to what they know and be more informed.
Others will dismiss it completely (sometimes in immature & nasty ways - see the 2 posts above) because it doesn't fit with their per-conceived notions.

[EliJelly]

For all of us thinking/ believing that CH, Williamsburg, BP, KJ reached immunity at some point, Lakewood should never be lumped together. Just from visiting this thread for the past few months it's pretty obvious. Hashem yerachem.

[yuneeq]

Ok, I didn't log off yet.
My point is - I made my point.

Hard to keep track of your point when it keeps changing. But here goes - the lockdown that no one is advocating is a terrible thing; therefore all COVID precautions should be ignored and mocked, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an immature baby. Does that sum it up?

[iluv2travel]

LOL

I actually did.

Full lockdown = not eating open cake in the coffee room

That easy?  Now you tell us?

[PlatinumGuy]

For all of us thinking/ believing that CH, Williamsburg, BP, KJ reached immunity at some point, Lakewood should never be lumped together. Just from visiting this thread for the past few months it's pretty obvious. Hashem yerachem.

Lakewood appears to be worse right now, but they should all be rightly lumped together in that any kind of immunity is purely wishful thinking fantasy. And no, a family doctor in Lakewood isn’t the ultimate authority on that.

https://twitter.com/newscientist/status/1353714456040263680

[PlatinumGuy]

Now you tell us?

I don’t claim to have the perfect recipe. I started a thread a while back trying to understand what the torah says about sacrificing/risking a few lives for the well-being of a greater quantity of people, but it came up empty. I don’t think there is any way to put a finger in the exact amount of lives that are worth x amount of disruption, but I think the Torah sets the bar of sacrificing a life much higher than prevailing Western sentiment, which would mean we should be more careful than the strictest countries, not less.

The only thing I believe firmly is that there is no excuse to avoid protective measures that don’t come at a significant expense like masks and smaller weddings, and that it is unacceptable to disregard public safety laws when the vast majority of the population obeys then.

[avromie7]

I don’t claim to have the perfect recipe. I started a thread a while back trying to understand what the torah says about sacrificing/risking a few lives for the well-being of a greater quantity of people, but it came up empty. I don’t think there is any way to put a finger in the exact amount of lives that are worth x amount of disruption, but I think the Torah sets the bar of sacrificing a life much higher than prevailing Western sentiment, which would mean we should be more careful than the strictest countries, not less.

The only thing I believe firmly is that there is no excuse to avoid protective measures that don’t come at a significant expense like masks and smaller weddings, and that it is unacceptable to disregard public safety laws when the vast majority of the population obeys then.

Just like western society doesn't respect life as much as we do, they also don't care about the fallout from restrictions and lockdowns.

(I'm not getting into a discussion about the tradeoffs of restrictions, just to say that your argument goes both ways.)

[PlatinumGuy]

Just like western society doesn't respect life as much as we do, they also don't care about the fallout from restrictions and lockdowns.

(I'm not getting into a discussion about the tradeoffs of restrictions, just to say that your argument goes both ways.)

That may be true about restrictions that have a fallout, but it is certainly not true about measures that have zero fallout like masks.

[aygart]

Just like western society doesn't respect life as much as we do, they also don't care about the fallout from restrictions and lockdowns.

(I'm not getting into a discussion about the tradeoffs of restrictions, just to say that your argument goes both ways.)

Yes there absolutely are tradeoffs that need to be made, but there are some items which there is not real tradeoff of significance. One of those is large weddings. So much of the spread and the accompanying tragedies can be attributed to large weddings.

[iluv2travel]

I don’t claim to have the perfect recipe. I started a thread a while back trying to understand what the torah says about sacrificing/risking a few lives for the well-being of a greater quantity of people, but it came up empty. I don’t think there is any way to put a finger in the exact amount of lives that are worth x amount of disruption, but I think the Torah sets the bar of sacrificing a life much higher than prevailing Western sentiment, which would mean we should be more careful than the strictest countries, not less.

The only thing I believe firmly is that there is no excuse to avoid protective measures that don’t come at a significant expense like masks and smaller weddings, and that it is unacceptable to disregard public safety laws when the vast majority of the population obeys then.

First of all, I want to say that my question was totally a joke (and I probably should have indicated that if it wasn't self-evident like I thought).

Secondly, I respect and agree with what you're saying here.  IMO, even 1 life deserves to be bent over backwards for.  What I think people are having an issue with are the following:

#1 the length of time this has unfortunately been going on for and every time we think there's light at the end of the tunnel, the tunnel gets longer and the light moves out of reach, so its still unknown how long we are going to keep being in this predicament which makes it very frustrating for all;

#2 I don't think people are seeing and realizing black and white how actions are leading almost directly to deaths (and/or serious disease with long term repercussions).  I think it's been mentioned somewhere here, that  if everyone would go out wearing special glasses that allows them to see viral particles, we wouldn't have to impress upon anyone the urgency of the situation and convince them to take precautions.  They would do it themselves proactively.  I know you can scream and yell and tell people that this is so and they should just believe you without having those special glasses, but this is a classic case of אינו דומה שמוע לריאה, and unfortunately we are never going to have the seeing part.

So we will continue having various camps of people ranging from advocating for zero restrictions to full lockdown, with most falling somewhere in between, and you would be hard pressed to get anyone to change their position here until one of the above points changes.  Like, for example, if a scientist or top health official, or (whoever you have faith in that is an authoritative position) gets up and says definitively that in 4 (or even 6) weeks the virus is gone 100% if every single person adheres to a clear list of guidelines, I believe many more people than now would be willing to scrupulously follow it which means that you have a lot of people changing their actions and views than what they were previously doing/thinking.

I also beg to differ that the vast majority of the population in the USA are following public health guidelines.  The tens of thousands of cases confirmed daily and the unfortunate thousands of deaths reported daily are majority non-Jewish (and as an extension non-frum Jews).  This is not happening in a vacuum.  If only frum Jews wouldn't be following guidelines then COVID wouldn't be so prevalent all over the USA (or for that matter in most of the world).

[Moshe123]

49 new cases in Lakewood yesterday.

[PlatinumGuy]

.

Secondly, I respect and agree with what you're saying here.  IMO, even 1 life deserves to be bent over backwards for.

I'll be the first to admit closing schools and keeping large families in small spaces for long periods is more than just bending over backwards. It's a dangerous medicine to be used with caution.

#1 the length of time this has unfortunately been going on for and every time we think there's light at the end of the tunnel, the tunnel gets longer and the light moves out of reach, so its still unknown how long we are going to keep being in this predicament which makes it very frustrating for all;

#2 I don't think people are seeing and realizing black and white how actions are leading almost directly to deaths (and/or serious disease with long term repercussions).  I think it's been mentioned somewhere here, that  if everyone would go out wearing special glasses that allows them to see viral particles, we wouldn't have to impress upon anyone the urgency of the situation and convince them to take precautions.  They would do it themselves proactively.  I know you can scream and yell and tell people that this is so and they should just believe you without having those special glasses, but this is a classic case of אינו דומה שמוע לריאה, and unfortunately we are never going to have the seeing part.

I understand that. Most people aren't malicious, I think they are misinformed. What I disagree with is that there is no difference what we say and no point arguing. Every person here who is making unfounded claims about herd immunity or wrongly attacking lock down measures or public health leaders is contributing to all of these misconceptions. As a society we should be engaging full time in search of truth, not propagating our feelings and fantasies.

Each one of us is a tiny drop, but we are the ocean.

I also beg to differ that the vast majority of the population in the USA are following public health guidelines.

I agree with that. I specifically qualified my statement to places where the majority abides by the rules. When I wrote it I was thinking about Montreal where 95% of the population keeps virtually every single rule yet for weeks on end the Gov is fighting with Jews over gross, communal level violations. How can you ask the 95% not to hate us? 

[iluv2travel]

I'll be the first to admit closing schools and keeping large families in small spaces for long periods is more than just bending over backwards. It's a dangerous medicine to be used with caution.

This is exactly why we are walking on a tightrope here when debating zero to full lockdown.

I understand that. Most people aren't malicious, I think they are misinformed. What I disagree with is that there is no difference what we say and no point arguing. Every person here who is making unfounded claims about herd immunity or wrongly attacking lock down measures or public health leaders is contributing to all of these misconceptions. As a society we should be engaging full time in search of truth, not propagating our feelings and fantasies.

Each one of us is a tiny drop, but we are the ocean.

They wouldn't attack if they would feel that the intentions were purely to benefit society.  I think we can all agree that this has become so terribly and horribly political that people are having a very difficult time sifting for the diamonds in all that muck.  Not saying if they're wrong or right and if their duty may be to yes find the good, just stating a fact.

I agree with that. I specifically qualified my statement to places where the majority abides by the rules. When I wrote it I was thinking about Montreal where 95% of the population keeps virtually every single rule yet for weeks on end the Gov is fighting with Jews over gross, communal level violations. How can you ask the 95% not to hate us? 

Unfortunately, I'm not a mind reader.  Yet.  .  So I couldn't know what you were thinking while writing that.

I hear what you're saying specifically about Montreal, but that doesn't carry over to what we are experiencing here in the USA.  Total different reality.

[PlatinumGuy]

I hear what you're saying specifically about Montreal, but that doesn't carry over to what we re experiencing here in the USA.  Total different reality.

The difference may be true in a micro level, I was speaking about the broader trend. Frum communities everywhere from Montreal to London to Israel are being less careful and it should be the opposite.

[ae123]

Hard to keep track of your point when it keeps changing. But here goes - the lockdown that no one is advocating is a terrible thing; therefore all COVID precautions should be ignored and mocked, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an immature baby. Does that sum it up?

Absolutely not, as anyone who read my posts can see.
But you are clearly arguing purely לקנטר, so I'm done.

[ae123]

It's incredible how many people reached out to me to thank me for merely putting out some "inconvenient" facts to give a little balance to the picture.
What's even more incredible is how many people mentioned how they feel bullied on this forum if they don't toe the politically correct line. That was certainly an eye-opener.

[Euclid]

An old friend of mine was hospitalized last night. (Young person.)

[aygart]

they feel bullied

Feelings don't care about your facts.