Lakewood covid cases

[yitzgar]

Apparently there's been a massive spike of stillborns over the past couple of weeks. (Specifically stillborns, didn't hear about miscarriages.)

Oy. What kind of numbers are we talking?

[Euclid]

Oy. What kind of numbers are we talking?

Number I heard was "40 this past week", but that could be a game of broken telephone. Also, I have no point of reference; what's the typical number?

[Lurker]

Number I heard was "40 this past week", but that could be a game of broken telephone. Also, I have to point of reference; what's the typical number?

Can someone verify this before rumors run rampant?

[AsherO]

Can someone verify this before rumors run rampant?

People would be talking about this. Unlike miscarriages, this isn't really something easily kept under wraps. R"L, it sounds too high to b accurate, but with COVID a lot of improbable things have gone down.

[PlatinumGuy]

This self hatred is despicable.

What’s really happening here is deflecting criticism by pretending it’s hate. Juvenile.

No words.

Aka ‘I don’t actually know why you’re wrong’

[Euclid]

People would be talking about this. Unlike miscarriages, this isn't really something easily kept under wraps. R"L, it sounds too high to b accurate, but with COVID a lot of improbable things have gone down.

They are talking about it; heard from a few people, one of whom heard from chevra kadisha. That being said, I'm working to confirm.

[YitzyS]

They are talking about it; heard from a few people, one of whom heard from chevra kadisha. That being said, I'm working to confirm.

Did you hear any educated opinion on the reasoning? A specific strain of covid? The vaccine?

[iwlw2]

General question for the forum, I have heard from several people that medical advice in EY for kids that are asymptomatic is that they can leave quarantine after 7 days. Has anyone heard of/know of any kind of reliable source for this?
Also, just a general comment in response to some of the recent comments, and I know it may not be popular so consider me ducking in advance so I don't get hit. One of the challenges of this from the beginning that has been rather noticeable is that everyone seems to treat Covid restrictions/mitigation as a zero sum game, on both sides. If you really want to keep yourself and everyone else safe in the most optimal manner there is a case to be made for waring 2 masks 24/7, staying at least 20 feet away from everyone (those droplets really fly from a sneeze!), and not going anywhere for any reason. On the other hand, those that can't manage to comfortably wear masks for long periods or have various reasons they "need" to go to places or with people, basically end up denying all manner of restrictions, and just adopt life as normal (see: Lakewood, BP, Monsey etc.). I think there can be a happy medium. We can recognize that on the one hand masks etc. only help a little, plus it may not be realistic for everyone to do everything all the time etc. and yet also recognize that it is incumbent upon all of us all the time to do whatever we can within reason, and whatever that is will be a lot better for protecting ourselves and others than doing nothing. For example, insisting that anyone with any kind of symptoms whatsoever commit to not going to a family sheva brachos will probably not get you as far as encouraging everyone in such a situation to test which in this case actually led to the desired result, they revealed they were positive and thus stayed away and did not infect others.
Case in point, my kids were exposed to my wife, and we called Dr. Shanik who maintains that they would need to wait till the end of her 10 day quarantine, and then another 14 days. Now on some level this makes sense, in theory although they are living in one house and constantly exposed to her, it is still theoretically possible that they would only get it from her at the very end of her quarantine period, and then have their own 14 day incubation. But this is not very realistic, and its not shocking that almost no one in Lakewood would follow this. I don't think it is that much of a stretch for me to say that I believe that my kids would have caught it earlier and therefore can leave quarantine earlier, and while there may some risk there (more than staying in quarantine for 24 days) it becomes more in the realm of typical risks we all live with. (In fact, in my case, testing reveled all my kids as positive well before the ten days...) I would consider myself in the 98th percentile (or higher) in my community in terms of taking covid seriously, but I think you need to strike some kind of a balance to try and get the overall result of mitigation efforts higher rather than militantly insist on only the strictest guidelines (which to be fair, come from professionals who admit that they are not sure and are constantly adjusting their advice as well). Just my two cents.....

[avromie7]

If I'm reading this correctly, the sheva brachos inspired him to rule out Covid because he was already feeling under the weather. I don't want to take away from him making the effort to get tested. It was the right thing to do and should be 100% commended. Separately, considering going to sheva brachos when feeling under the weather is just ill-advised (no pun intended).

I think we agree more than not, the trouble is definition. When I say "under the weather" I don't mean נופל למשכב, I say under the weather because I don't have an exact description, it can mean a headache or what can be chalked up to a late night.

[PlatinumGuy]

Did you hear any educated opinion on the reasoning? A specific strain of covid?

There is talk in Israel that the UK variant disproportionally affects pregnant women. I posted some data on it elsewhere.

[Euclid]

Did you hear any educated opinion on the reasoning? A specific strain of covid? The vaccine?

Only thing I know about it is what I posted here (way back):

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/01/second-trimester-miscarriage-attributed-to-a-coronavirus-infection-of-placenta.html


I wonder what the numbers in our community are - does anyone know if there's been an increase in miscarriages/stillborns over the past months?


The reasoning is that COVID-19 can lead to blood clots and “The placenta is made up of miles and miles of blood vessels. Anything that causes clots in the placenta is going to diminish oxygen for the embryo or the fetus and put the fetus at an increased risk of demise.”

[S209]

Did you hear any educated opinion on the reasoning? A specific strain of covid? The vaccine?

AFAIK pregnant women were not getting vaccinated in Lakewood until yesterday morning, so vaccine should be ruled out.

[YitzyS]

I hate to break up a perfectly popcorn-worthy thread with some positive news, but @Euclid posted this in the tehillim thread and being that it was also discussed here, I'm linking his posts [which instantly put me in an excellent mood!]

Name added.

Ruchama Rena Basya bas Shifra Rus

Off the ventilator Bh! Still needs teffilos, long road to recovery.

Off oxygen bh

[PlatinumGuy]

While I appreciate the possibility it may be true, one should exercise extreme caution when suggesting a vaccine is causing harm. Many people will misunderstand the question to be a realistic possibility.

[S209]

General question

Not quarantining while living in the same *home* as a COVID+ patient is borderline retzicha. This is close to black and white.

[S209]

I hate to break up a perfectly popcorn-worthy thread with some positive news, but @Euclid posted this in the tehillim thread and being that it was also discussed here, I'm linking his posts [which instantly put me in an excellent mood!]

BH!!

[Yehuda57]

What’s really happening here is deflecting criticism by pretending it’s hate. Juvenile.
Aka ‘I don’t actually know why you’re wrong’

This is not the thread for me to go through every part of the comment that is sickening. I'll suffice with 2 points.

1) There certainly have been worse comments in this vain on this forum, but usually they're made by trolls who can barely string a sentence together. But when it's a sentiment couched in clear language with pesukim, nach, it gives the comment added weight and legitimacy.

2) What would your reaction be to me saying about my African American neighbors who consistently double park and block people from being able to get their cars out, often for hours on end and even overnight. "See? This is why people hate black people. They are so selfish and don't think the rules apply to them."

Your comment was the most basic form of bigotry - applying a stereotype across an entire group of people - directed at millions of your own brothers and sisters. It was disgusting and should be retracted.

[iwlw2]

Not quarantining while living in the same *home* as a COVID+ patient is borderline retzicha. This is close to black and white.

Not sure if this was addressed to my comment, if it was maybe you misunderstood or I wasnt clear. There was no question of quarantining, the question simply was for how long. And precisely because I agree with you on the importance of quarantining in such situations, I think its important to get people to do something as opposed to just throwing up their hands and saying I will not be able to stay in quarantine with my kids for 24 days anyway, I might as well not quarantine and or test at all. Was this clearer?

[PlatinumGuy]

2) What would your reaction be to me saying about my African American neighbors who consistently double park and block people from being able to get their cars out, often for hours on end and even overnight. "See? This is why people hate black people. They are so selfish and don't think the rules apply to them."

If it’s true that blacks do that more than others, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement. It doesn’t make it OK to hate all blacks because even if 90% of them do it, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing it out. You can understand why people hate without saying the hate is justified.

Your comment was the most basic form of bigotry - applying a stereotype across an entire group of people - directed at millions of your own brothers and sisters. It was disgusting and should be retracted.

You can move the conversation to whichever thread you want, and I’m happy to retract my comment the minute you convince me it was wrong.

There is nothing bigotous about saying Blacks are more prone to crime than Whites. It is a well known universally accepted fact. Bigotry is when you say the propensity to crime is simply a result of the color of the skin and therefore less ideal humans,  all Blacks are bad bc more of them are criminals, and to a certain extent even if you treat somebody differently bc he himself is or maybe a criminal.

Saying a certain negative trait is more common in Lakewood than other places may be true or false, but it is certainly legitimate, if not outright necessary.

If it isn’t clear, there is nobody who loves Lakewood more than me. It is a city of incredible Kiddush hashem, where there is likely more Torah learning concentrated than anywhere else since the Churban, and much of it comes with incredible personal sacrifices. I would gladly trade every pleasure I’ve had in this world for 15 minutes in a Lakewood BM, or one understanding of a Tosfos or Pasuk. That doesn’t make Lakewood percent and there is nothing wrong with talking about it. 

[Yehuda57]

Yadda yadda yadda

"I'm just pointing out facts" is the number one defense of racists the world over, so kudos on jumping right to it.

"This is why people hate you" is not "here is statistical proof that frum jews care less about broader society than other demographics"

Claiming that frum jews are more likely to go to work when sick is just ludicrous. It's a commonly complained about issue by every segment of the population. There is also no way to prove that, and so your "just stating the facts" lines are baseles. Then to take that and stretch it into a general unquantifiable behavior problem that affects millions? Come off it.

Of course, the cherry on top of your anti Semitic sundae is the next best racist mantra, "some of my best friends come from Lakewood."

I'm done with this. Good night. Gut voch.