Author Topic: Lakewood covid cases  (Read 522784 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3680 on: February 13, 2021, 09:43:37 PM »

Claiming that frum jews are more likely to go to work when sick is just ludicrous. It's a commonly complained about issue by every segment of the population. There is also no way to prove that, and so your "just stating the facts" lines are baseles. Then to take that and stretch it into a general unquantifiable behavior problem that affects millions? Come off it.
If you want to dispute the facts, here are some questions. Out of 7,000,000,000 in the world, how many Covid+ patients were caught flying and how many of them were frum Jews?

Looks at planes flying into Montreal and Toronto, where Frum Jews are less than 1% of the population. MIA-YYZ last week had 33 pax of which 25+ were frum, and it’s a known phenomenon going on in many flights. Airport staff are very well aware of it and are asking uncomfortable questions.

Look at the pictures of flights into Israel. Frum people are 12% of Israel. The flights have way more of us.

How many illegal and dangerous weddings were held in Israel, and how many of them were frum?


Without a shadow of doubt there is Covid precaution problem in the frum community, and without a shadow of doubt it’s making Goyim hate us, let’s hope it won’t make them kill even more of us.

 
I’m done with this. Good night. Gut voch.
Aka you’re right but I don’t have the guts to admit it.
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Offline S209

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3681 on: February 13, 2021, 09:47:12 PM »
Without a shadow of doubt there is Covid precaution problem in the frum community
Is this really in dispute? LOL
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3682 on: February 13, 2021, 09:49:01 PM »
Is this really in dispute? LOL
And anybody who says otherwise is just a hater. Welcome to kindergarten
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3683 on: February 13, 2021, 09:57:08 PM »
And anybody who says otherwise is just a hater. Welcome to kindergarten

The issue is you over generalized, and didn't even limit it to Covid. You made it sound like all frum Jews are a$$holes who don't care about society, and that's why they deserve to be hated by everyone. I'd like to think that wasn't your intention, but if you read the line as it was written, I think you'll understand why it's not being taken well.

The lack of concern for society is precisely what makes secular Jews hate frum Jews and non-Jews hate Jews  הָבָה נִתְחַכְּמָה לוֹ פֶּן יִרְבֶּה וְהָיָה כִּי תִקְרֶאנָה מִלְחָמָה וְנוֹסַף גַּם הוּא עַל שֹׂנְאֵינוּ וְנִלְחַם בָּנוּ
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3684 on: February 13, 2021, 09:59:39 PM »
I think we agree more than not, the trouble is definition. When I say "under the weather" I don't mean נופל למשכב, I say under the weather because I don't have an exact description, it can mean a headache or what can be chalked up to a late night.

The ambiguity of the term probably didn't help. When I hear it, I think of how I apply it, which is generally something more than, "I'm tired" or "I have a headache."
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3685 on: February 13, 2021, 10:10:44 PM »
If you want to dispute the facts, here are some questions. Out of 7,000,000,000 in the world, how many Covid+ patients were caught flying and how many of them were frum Jews?

Looks at planes flying into Montreal and Toronto, where Frum Jews are less than 1% of the population. MIA-YYZ last week had 33 pax of which 25+ were frum, and it’s a known phenomenon going on in many flights. Airport staff are very well aware of it and are asking uncomfortable questions.

Look at the pictures of flights into Israel. Frum people are 12% of Israel. The flights have way more of us.

How many illegal and dangerous weddings were held in Israel, and how many of them were frum?


Without a shadow of doubt there is Covid precaution problem in the frum community, and without a shadow of doubt it’s making Goyim hate us, let’s hope it won’t make them kill even more of us.

 Aka you’re right but I don’t have the guts to admit it.
What does the number of frum Jews flying have to do with the number of covid+ caught flying? Are you assuming every Frum jew who flies is covid+
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3686 on: February 13, 2021, 10:22:20 PM »
Not quarantining while living in the same *home* as a COVID+ patient is borderline retzicha. This is close to black and white.
There are doctors and rabbanim that say that if you have antibodies, then you don’t need to quarantine. So maybe it’s not black and white...

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3687 on: February 13, 2021, 10:23:05 PM »
There are doctors and rabbanim that day that if you have antibodies, then you don’t need to quarantine. So maybe it’s not black and white...
I was referring to OP’s scenario where antibodies did not seem to be present.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3688 on: February 13, 2021, 10:23:59 PM »
I was referring to OP’s scenario where antibodies did not seem to be present.
Oh, wasn’t following the conversation. I just saw your post

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3689 on: February 13, 2021, 10:42:14 PM »
You made it sound like all frum Jews are a$$holes who don't care about society, and that's why they deserve to be hated by everyone..
I did not say all and I did not say deserved.
I said more frum Jews proportionally than non-frum Jews.
I said they hate us because of it, I did not say we deserve to be hated for it. The fact that somebody does something wrong, doesn't mean they don't have a reason for it.

What does the number of frum Jews flying have to do with the number of covid+ caught flying?
It doesn't, they are two different examples of people prioritizing their personal interest over the collective good of the rest of society. (one is clearly infinitely more egregious than the other)

The Canadian government has called for people not to travel unless they absolutely must. The Finance Minister of Ontario resigned after it became known he travelled for vacation, even though he complied with all quarantine requirements.

Going to Miami for vacation is a perusal interest. Staying home is the collective interest so as not to bring Covid back from somewhere it is 15x more prevalent.

I'm not saying every person who goes to Miami is wrong, I'm saying it's an example of drawing the balance between the personal interest and collective interest differently then the other 90% of non-Jews, and they don't appreciate it.

I didn’t equate anything. I said your perception of how to draw the balance between your personal interest and the collective safety is leaning towards selfish more than the rest of the world, and they hate us for it.
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3690 on: February 13, 2021, 10:43:37 PM »

Case in point, my kids were exposed to my wife, and we called Dr. Shanik who maintains that they would need to wait till the end of her 10 day quarantine, and then another 14 days. Now on some level this makes sense, in theory although they are living in one house and constantly exposed to her, it is still theoretically possible that they would only get it from her at the very end of her quarantine period, and then have their own 14 day incubation. But this is not very realistic, and its not shocking that almost no one in Lakewood would follow this. I don't think it is that much of a stretch for me to say that I believe that my kids would have caught it earlier and therefore can leave quarantine earlier, and while there may some risk there (more than staying in quarantine for 24 days) it becomes more in the realm of typical risks we all live with. (In fact, in my case, testing reveled all my kids as positive well before the ten days...) I would consider myself in the 98th percentile (or higher) in my community in terms of taking covid seriously, but I think you need to strike some kind of a balance to try and get the overall result of mitigation efforts higher rather than militantly insist on only the strictest guidelines (which to be fair, come from professionals who admit that they are not sure and are constantly adjusting their advice as well). Just my two cents.....

I would just point out that it's not so far fetched. My wife and I were positive, kids were exposed to us and tested negative on day 7 of their quarantine and developed symptoms on day 9. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 10:46:56 PM by dasmo801 »

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3691 on: February 13, 2021, 10:58:08 PM »
I would just point out that it's not so far fetched. My wife and I were positive, kids were exposed to us and tested negative on day 7 of their quarantine and developed symptoms on day 9.
OK, what I was suggesting is that after 10 days of quarantine I feel it is pretty safe to assume (if they are tested after day 10) that they would be safe. Your experience does not contradict that.
Also, my general point was not that it's impossible, just that it may be a necessary evil to strike some kind of balance at a point when the risk would seem to be at least reduced.

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3692 on: February 13, 2021, 11:02:49 PM »
OK, what I was suggesting is that after 10 days of quarantine I feel it is pretty safe to assume (if they are tested after day 10) that they would be safe. Your experience does not contradict that.
TL;DR your whole post, but I will say Israel also considers 2 negative tests and 10 days of quarantine sufficient for somebody who was exposed to a Covid positive case.

I think the 10 days would start from the last contact though...

I also think Derech Hatorah is to be מחמיר like the more stringent mainstream opinions in the medical community and public health authorities that say 14 days is required (some say 21), if not for 100% quarantine, at least for staying away from large indoor gatherings & being more careful with masking.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 11:16:11 PM by PlatinumGuy »
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3693 on: February 13, 2021, 11:24:42 PM »
OK, what I was suggesting is that after 10 days of quarantine I feel it is pretty safe to assume (if they are tested after day 10) that they would be safe. Your experience does not contradict that.
Also, my general point was not that it's impossible, just that it may be a necessary evil to strike some kind of balance at a point when the risk would seem to be at least reduced.
10 days from last exposure is CDC recommendation

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3694 on: February 13, 2021, 11:36:14 PM »
Out of 7,000,000,000 in the world, how many Covid+ patients were caught flying and how many of them were frum Jews?

Do you have numbers on this?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3695 on: February 13, 2021, 11:37:37 PM »
10 days from last exposure is CDC recommendation
So for somebody living in the same household and exposed daily, it would be 10 days after the last time the Covid carrier was considered contagious (14/10 days etc)?
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3696 on: February 13, 2021, 11:39:45 PM »
I did not say all and I did not say deserved.
I said more frum Jews proportionally than non-frum Jews.
I said they hate us because of it, I did not say we deserve to be hated for it. The fact that somebody does something wrong, doesn't mean they don't have a reason for it.
It doesn't, they are two different examples of people prioritizing their personal interest over the collective good of the rest of society. (one is clearly infinitely more egregious than the other)

The Canadian government has called for people not to travel unless they absolutely must. The Finance Minister of Ontario resigned after it became known he travelled for vacation, even though he complied with all quarantine requirements.

Going to Miami for vacation is a perusal interest. Staying home is the collective interest so as not to bring Covid back from somewhere it is 15x more prevalent.

I'm not saying every person who goes to Miami is wrong, I'm saying it's an example of drawing the balance between the personal interest and collective interest differently then the other 90% of non-Jews, and they don't appreciate it.

Where do Canadian travel restrictions come in here?

I can tell you that in FLL in Jan there were many full flights with ZERO outwardly visible Jews on them
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3697 on: February 13, 2021, 11:40:48 PM »
So for somebody living in the same household and exposed daily, it would be 10 days after the last time the Covid carrier was considered contagious (14/10 days etc)?
Yup. Not fun, but that's what you gotta do. Can be longer if different family members get it during those time periods....

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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3698 on: February 13, 2021, 11:51:15 PM »
Do you have numbers on this?
Here's one case too many, and I believe there have been several since, I'm not going to look for them. I agree the media is out for blood and amplifies anti-Semitic and anti-frum news. 

https://twitter.com/AmalyaDuek/status/1254100016920252417

Where do Canadian travel restrictions come in here?

I can tell you that in FLL in Jan there were many full flights with ZERO outwardly visible Jews on them
I was referring to flights arriving in Canada, which contain an outsized quantity of Canadian Jews. Nobody disputes it, and in part is due to legitimate reasons like more international family.

Florida has ~2.5m+ pax landing every month (July is the latest month this information was available). Canada has less than 1m. It's a very different situation.
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Re: Lakewood covid cases
« Reply #3699 on: February 13, 2021, 11:54:20 PM »
Yup. Not fun, but that's what you gotta do. Can be longer if different family members get it during those time periods....
Yeah I just didn't wanna be the guy to say it...

The CDC says 10 days but explicitly says 14 days is ideal and the only reason they say 10 is bc people wouldn't listen Imagine if one was told meat isn't really Kosher but they can be meikel because people won't listen if they say it's assur... Endangering people is infinitely worse than eating trief.
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