Lakewood covid cases

[yitzgar]

Yeah I just didn't wanna be the guy to say it...

The CDC says 10 days but explicitly says 14 days is ideal and the only reason they say 10 is bc people wouldn't listen Imagine if one was told meat isn't really Kosher but they can be meikel because people won't listen if they say it's assur... Endangering people is infinitely worse than eating trief.

Not quite the same. They say that the risk is lower after 10, and when weighed against the possibility of non-compliance, they feel that the risk is low enough to justify this guidance. I agree that one should be mqchmir if at all possible (obviously, wearing a mask properly should be a davar pashut)

[PlatinumGuy]

Not quite the same. They say that the risk is lower after 10, and when weighed against the possibility of non-compliance, they feel that the risk is low enough to justify this guidance. I agree that one should be mqchmir if at all possible (obviously, wearing a mask properly should be a davar pashut)

That's what I meant to say. Thank you for articulating it better.

[aygart]

Here's one case too many, and I believe there have been several since, I'm not going to look for them. I agree the media is out for blood and amplifies anti-Semitic and anti-frum news. 

https://twitter.com/AmalyaDuek/status/1254100016920252417
I was referring to flights arriving in Canada, which contain an outsized quantity of Canadian Jews. Nobody disputes it, and in part is due to legitimate reasons like more international family.

Florida has ~2.5m+ pax landing every month (July is the latest month this information was available). Canada has less than 1m. It's a very different situation.

You made a claim that frum Jews were disproportionately represented among those caught traveling COVID+ and this is all you have to back it up? "one case too many" and you "believe there were several since"? That is DISGUSTING! This is a great example of what @Yehuda57 was referring to.

Where did you make clear that you were referring to one very specific subset of flights? That is also ridiculous and another great example. Cherry picked data. (as an aside, I wonder how many were people coming to the states to get the vaccine that is basically non-existent in Canada?)

[PlatinumGuy]

Where did you make clear that you were referring to one very specific subset of flights?

It was as clear as day in my original comment to anybody who didn't read it with a preconceived conclusion.

Looks at planes flying into Montreal and Toronto, where Frum Jews are less than 1% of the population. MIA-YYZ last week had 33 pax of which 25+ were frum, and it’s a known phenomenon going on in many flights. Airport staff are very well aware of it and are asking uncomfortable questions.

You made a claim that frum Jews were disproportionately represented among those caught traveling COVID+ and this is all you have to back it up?

1 case is indeed a disproportional representation. There were 100m Covid positive people. Not more than 100 of them made the news for flying Covid+.

1 frum person being there is already more than our proportion of society, and as blinded as you may be, we all know there were more than 1. There is no point for me to look for more stories when you'll just respond with a snarky comment without even attempting to defend your position, as you tend to do when you lose arguments.

(as an aside, I wonder how many were people coming to the states to get the vaccine that is basically non-existent in Canada?)

I explicitly said much of the travel is 100% legitimate. But, this was going on before there were vaccines. Airport officials in YUL & YYZ were asking why so many Jews are traveling. I heard many first hand reports.

[AsherO]

It was as clear as day in my original comment to anybody who didn't read it with a preconceived conclusion.

1 case is indeed a disproportional representation. There were 100m Covid positive people. Not more than 100 of them made the news for flying Covid+.

1 frum person being there is already more than our proportion of society, and as blinded as you may be, we all know there were more than 1.
I explicitly said much of the travel is 100% legitimate. But, this was going on before there were vaccines. Airport officials in YUL & YYZ were asking why so many Jews are traveling. I heard many first hand reports.

Thinks making the news doesn't constitute data. People publish things because they want to make a point. We don't even know if that tweet was true, but even if it was true it was published with an agenda and you're playing right into it.

[PlatinumGuy]

We don't even know if that tweet was true,

His son admitted it was true on live TV.

[AsherO]

His son admitted it was true on live TV.

The father and son are morons. Not representative of your average frum person, sorry.

There are covidiots in every community, the frum ones just get more hate, just like their non-covidiot brethern get more hate for being frum.

[aygart]

It was as clear as day in my original comment to anybody who didn't read it with a preconceived conclusion.

Because it was an example you gave? Again, cherry picked data is what shows bias not the opposite.

1 case is indeed a disproportional representation. There were 100m Covid positive people. Not more than 100 of them made the news for flying Covid+.

Yet one case is not indicative of ANYTHING at all! Let's assume there are more who flew, and there probably were, that still shows nothing about what seems to be a TOTALLY FABRICATED insinuation. You asked him to answer a question to illustrate your shameful assertions yet YOU YOURSELF DO NOT SEEM TO KNOW THE ANSWER and even when you try to back it up all you can do is find one case. This all goes back to your hateful stereotypes. It is not coming from data but rather that anyone who calls you out is doing so based on a "we all know". I didn't make any argument here at all about what Jews are or aren't doing. All I did was ask you to answer YOUR OWN QUESTION that you used to try to back yourself up and you showed how it was based on fabrications, assumptions, and stereotypes.

[Yehuda57]

You made a claim that frum Jews were disproportionately represented among those caught traveling COVID+ and this is all you have to back it up? "one case too many" and you "believe there were several since"? That is DISGUSTING! This is a great example of what @Yehuda57 was referring to.

Where did you make clear that you were referring to one very specific subset of flights? That is also ridiculous and another great example. Cherry picked data. (as an aside, I wonder how many were people coming to the states to get the vaccine that is basically non-existent in Canada?)

He also switched the discussion from "frum people are generally selfish and ignore rules" to "frum people ignore covid rules".

Another point is that, "this is why they hate you" is bogus. Bigotry starts with the hatred, and then they find the reasons like "black people commit more crimes" or "Jews don't follow rules"

[PlatinumGuy]

Because it was an example you gave?

It wasn't an example, the entire claim was made about flights into Canada, and you literally asked 'where I said that'.

If it isn't clear enough to you, I was presenting two different unrelated examples of selfish decision making process. 1. Covid+ people flying. 2. People flying while others stay home. The second claim was made explicitly only about flights into YYZ & YUL, and you simply overlooked it. The decent thing to do would be to admit it.

YOU YOURSELF DO NOT SEEM TO KNOW THE ANSWER

Again, if I say it rains outside and a lot of rain falls, and you ask me to go and count exactly how many drops, it is ridiculous and won't change the argument. The correct answer is simply 'We all know' it rained a lot.

If I would find another 50 cases of frum COVID+ it wouldn't change your opinion in the slightest bit. Anybody honest knows that unfortunately too many frum people do it, and no amount of data will convince those who prefer not to think so.

If you don't think more frum people are selfish about Covid than the rest of the world, look at the last few pages of this thread alone where people claim a positive test was 'unnecessary', going to a Sheva Brachos with sinus infection symptoms is legitimate because it 'feeds their families', not to mention the lack of reason in regards to having large weddings in the first place.

Another point is that, "this is why they hate you" is bogus. Bigotry starts with the hatred, and then they find the reasons like "black people commit more crimes" or "Jews don't follow rules"

Interesting that the Torah does in fact delve into much detail about the thought process of goyim who hate us, from Paraoh to Acheshveirosh.

Saying the goyim hate us because they're bigots doesn't mean it isn't motivated by a reason, and we have many halachos of Aiva that are Doche other mitzvahs specifically to avoid triggering more hate, even though that hate is wrong.

[EliJelly]

If you don't think more frum people are selfish about Covid than the rest of the world,

Being more lax about Covid restrictions does not necessarily stem from selfishness. You sure know of a whole lot of cultural and situational reasons to attribute that to.

[PlatinumGuy]

The father and son are morons. Not representative of your average frum person, sorry.

There are covidiots in every community, the frum ones just get more hate, just like their non-covidiot brethern get more hate for being frum.

The frum community in Israel has 3-4x deaths (per capita over 60) compared to non-frum Jews in Israel.

There is no doubt there are proportionally more Covidiots in the frum community than elsewhere, even if I'm wrong about it manifesting in   Covid+ people flying.

 

Being more lax about Covid restrictions does not necessarily stem from selfishness.

That's true, this conversation started when somebody said staying home when he feels ill is too big of a burden because it happened a dozen times in the last year, and I said the vast majority of the world is erring on the side of staying home 12 times at the expense of personal interest for the communal good of less covid spread. The question of balancing the personal interest against collective safety is what we're calling 'selfish' here. As I said before, not always is it objectively wrong, it's just subjectively different than how other people draw the line.

[aygart]

It wasn't an example, the entire claim was made about flights into Canada, and you literally asked 'where I said that'.

If it isn't clear enough to you, I was presenting two different unrelated examples of selfish decision making process. 1. Covid+ people flying. 2. People flying while others stay home. The second claim was made explicitly only about flights into YYZ & YUL, and you simply overlooked it. The decent thing to do would be to admit it.

Again, if I say it rains outside and a lot of rain falls, and you ask me to go and count exactly how many drops, it is ridiculous and won't change the argument. The correct answer is simply 'We all know' it rained a lot.

If I would find another 50 cases of frum COVID+ it wouldn't change your opinion in the slightest bit. Anybody honest knows that unfortunately too many frum people do it, and no amount of data will convince those who prefer not to think so.

If you don't think more frum people are selfish about Covid than the rest of the world, look at the last few pages of this thread alone where people claim a positive test was 'unnecessary', going to a Sheva Brachos with sinus infection symptoms is legitimate because it 'feeds their families', not to mention the lack of reason in regards to having large weddings in the first place.

I did not read that as a seprate claim but it sounds like I misread that. I thought it was supposed to be backing up your previous stereotypes.

It doesn't seem like you have any clue at all about my opinion about how well people in the frum community are dealing with COVID. I will repeat, that over here I gave no opinion at all, and my callling you out on the way you are making things up as "since you know that people are flying COVID+ that is causing people to hate us" which is the EXACT line of reasoning of so many anti-semites. It has nothing to do with facts, but rather a comeon you know they are doing that attitude that you are displaying here. You asked something as if there were hard facts and it comes out that it was only stereotypes. That is what @Yehuda57 was calling out and that has nothing at all to do with opinions of whether or not any group is or isn't being careful enough.

[PlatinumGuy]

I did not read that as a seprate claim but it sounds like I misread that.

Thank you for being honest. I will know to be more careful how I phrase things.

It has nothing to do with facts, but rather a comeon you know they are doing that attitude that you are displaying here. .

Some facts are indeed well enough known that proving them is useless, but we are going in circles. If you prefer to think of me an antisemitic racist, so be it.

[aygart]

Thank you for being honest. I will know to be more careful how I phrase things.
Some facts are indeed well enough known that proving them is useless, but we are going in circles. If you prefer to think of me an antisemitic racist, so be it.

You would do yourself well to stop with the false absolutes

[PlatinumGuy]

You would do yourself well to stop with the false absolutes

You have a cool like count right now.

Saying more people in x community behave in a certain way than people in other communities is not an absolute.

[aygart]

Saying more people in x community behave in a certain way than people in other communities is not an absolute.

That is correct and if you think i discussed that aspect at all it was only from conjecture. You assumed certain opinions of mine which may or may not be true.

[PlatinumGuy]

You assumed certain opinions of mine which may or may not be true.

I think I am fairly well aware of your opinions insofar as you disclose them here that we should be more Covid cautious, particularly with weddings, and I respect them.

The opinion of yours which I think blinded you in misreading my original post was your belief that bias proves error. It seems to me you often think proving somebody is biased is proving they're wrong, whereas it doesn't actually prove that.

That is correct and if you think i discussed that aspect at all it was only from conjecture.

Then indeed I failed to understand what you mean by false absolutes, and googling the term didn't help.

[PlatinumGuy]

How can the Orthodox Jew, whose Torah values only enhance his generous personality, be simultaneously both charitable and selfish? It is possible to express one’s generosity by “going all out” to help others, while selfishly restricting the scope of “others” to those akin to oneself. The Orthodox Jew has created and mastered the art of being selfishly generous.

This trait develops by first establishing a significant divide between Jew and non-Jew. Barriers are then erected between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews. Finally, as could be predicted, the divide extends to factions within the Orthodox community. As such, the very segregation and isolationism that produced the exalted infrastructure leads directly to its least appealing characteristics.

https://www.ou.org/life/community/orthodoxys-infrastructure-product-selfish-generosity/

[aygart]

Then indeed I failed to understand what you mean by false absolutes, and googling the term didn't help.

It seems I used the wrong terminology. Hasty generalization would be more accurate.