Peace In The Middle East Master Thread

[CountValentine]

*I'm still waiting for my Damage Control checks to come in, who do I tag?

I would say @jj1000 but I know he is busy. So, try @Dan as he seems to free at the moment. 

[AYHG]

I don't think I misunderstood anything. When this

What would you call it?

directly follows this

If I understand you correctly you are saying why it has to be that way?
I am trying to understand those who say it is not an occupation or prison.

and this

When you control everything?
I am not saying Israel shouldn't I am just saying we should call it what it is.

and followed again by this

What name would you give it?
If you lived there, what would you call it?
Yes, Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. Would Israel allow them to build factories and airports?

Am I missing something?

I understand that he came to see that actions by Israel that may have contributed to the conditions may be justified, but I'm disagreeing with the description entirely by pointing out that it isn't any more an open-air prison than Switzerland during ww2 (from a blockage perspective) and half the world (from the perspective of living conditions). As an aside, I also addressed what I thought was a bias to rush to the defense of the media.

Lets go full stop and help me and the ignorant college kids understand. Let me stay first I have seen a ton of interviews with these kids and not one of them wants to kill Jews.

When/where did this phrase start/originate?

I already addressed your first point. They aren't saying that they intend to personally murder us.

I'm not about to go research the exact origin right now. Why? because I don't suffer from the belief that I must not believe the words they are saying when it clashed with pre-conceive beliefs about how all people desiring the same things...

If you have reason to disbelieve the implied intetion based on reality, it's on you to provide that context and show that it applies in this case.

[CountValentine]

I understand that he came to see that actions by Israel that may have contributed to the conditions may be justified,

100% not. Nothing justifies terrorism. This goes way past terrorism.

[CountValentine]

I'm not about to go research the exact origin right now. Why? because I don't suffer from the belief that I must not believe the words they are saying when it clashed with pre-conceive beliefs about how all people desiring the same things...

All words have different meaning. When I heard it I took it to mean they want their own state free from anyone's control.
It was pointed out to it is in the Hamas charter and means kill all Jews river to sea.

[notyettaken]

What would you call it?

An enclosed area with animals inside is called a zoo

[yfr bachur]

All words have different meaning. When I heard it I took it to mean they want their own state free from anyone's control.
It was pointed out to it is in the Hamas charter and means kill all Jews river to sea.

But the "Palestinian territories" they claim to want to have  free from anyones control doesn't go from the river to the sea...

[Yehuda57]

All words have different meaning. When I heard it I took it to mean they want their own state free from anyone's control.
It was pointed out to it is in the Hamas charter and means kill all Jews river to sea.

To build on this, the PA stopped using the phrase as part of their agreement to go on the path toward a two-state solution. IOW, it's not just the Hamas charter, the phrase predates that by a long time, and everyone who used it knew exactly what it meant, there was no ambiguity about it. IINM, the Arabic phrase is "From the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab". "Free" is a western adaptation to make as if they want self-determination, the phrase means they want to kill Jews.

[CountValentine]

To build on this, the PA stopped using the phrase as part of their agreement to go on the path toward a two-state solution. IOW, it's not just the Hamas charter, the phrase predates that by a long time, and everyone who used it knew exactly what it meant, there was no ambiguity about it. IINM, the Arabic phrase is "From the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab". "Free" is a western adaptation to make as if they want self-determination, the phrase means they want to kill Jews.

What does this phrase mean: “Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

[AsherO]

"Free" is a western adaptation to make as if they want self-determination, the phrase means they want to kill Jews.

To be fair, free rhymes better…

Even if it doesn’t mean they want to kill Jews , at very least to eliminate Israel/the Jewish state.

[AsherO]

What does this phrase mean: “Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

Whose phrase is that?

[yfr bachur]

Whose phrase is that?

IIRC it is similar to an Irgun/Etzel slogan from pre-48 mandate area palestine
Puah Steiner writes about it in "forever my Jerusalem"
A congruent slogan translates as "There are two banks of the Jordan, and both are ours"

75 years, how the retoric has changed 

[CountValentine]

Whose phrase is that?

Bibi's Likud party original platform. It was a direct response or to troll or mock river/sea/free. So if you believe one stands for to kill all Jews does the other stand for to kill all Arabs?

[AsherO]

IIRC it is similar to an Irgun/Etzel slogan from pre-48 mandate area palestine
Puah Steiner writes about it in "forever my Jerusalem"
A congruent slogan translates as "There are two banks of the Jordan, and both are ours"

75 years, how the retoric has changed 

So now we’re invoking slogans that predate 1948? We have a “when did the conflict start” topic for that. In any case, both banks of the Jordan means something different. And pre-1947 partition plan British Mandate Palestine was all up for discussion, and the presumption was that the Balfour Declaration called for that land to eventually become a Jewish state.

[AsherO]

Bibi's Likud party original platform. It was a direct response or to troll or mock river/sea/free. So if you believe one stands for to kill all Jews does the other stand for to kill all Arabs?

Comparing how Jews fare in Gaza/West Bank vs. to how Arabs fare in 1948-Israel (within those borders, anytime from 1948 to today) should answer your question.

[CountValentine]

Comparing how Jews fare in Gaza/West Bank vs. to how Arabs fare in 1948-Israel (within those borders, anytime from 1948 to today) should answer your question.

I would like your answer on the slogan. If the internet of the slogan was to kill all Jews and Bibi knew that then does that mean the intent of his slogan was to kill all Arabs?

If he took the slogan to mean kill all why would he do the same thing?

[AsherO]

I would like your answer on the slogan. If the internet of the slogan was to kill all Jews and Bibi knew that then does that mean the intent of his slogan was to kill all Arabs?

If he took the slogan to mean kill all why would he do the same thing?

We want self-determination and you’re claiming we’re genocidal. They’re genocidal and claiming to want self-determination.

You really don’t think people flip slogans to suit their perspective/agenda? It doesn’t mean they’re co-opting the entire philosophy of the slogan they’re adapting.

[Yehuda57]

What does this phrase mean: “Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

Israeli sovereignty has never meant only Jewish. 2 million Israeli Arabs live in Israel with the same rights as Jewish Israelis. Arab sovereignty (at least as it pertains to Palestine) means Judenrein. There are warning signs all over roads to Palestinian areas that it is dangerous for Israelis to enter, and many deaths have occurred just from people taking a wrong turn by mistake. But also, they say this. At the same time as chanting from the river to the sea, they speak about ridding it of Jews. Prior to the Hamas charter, the PLO charter said the same thing (not as extreme antisemitic language, but the basic point).

To give an example, from 1948-1967 Jews could not go to the Western Wall. After Israel captured Jerusalem in the 6 day war, Israel *immediately* and unilaterally handed over control of Temple Mount - Judaism's holiest site - to the Arabs.

My family lived in Chevron since 1845. When Mearas Hamachpeila was under Arab control, Jews could go no further than the 7th step outside. If Palestine were granted a state that included Chevron, we wouldn't even be allowed to go near the steps.

[CountValentine]

We want self-determination and you’re claiming we’re genocidal. They’re genocidal and claiming to want self-determination.

You really don’t think people flip slogans to suit their perspective/agenda? It doesn’t mean they’re co-opting the entire philosophy of the slogan they’re adapting.

The point is Bibi never took the slogan to mean kill all Jews. If he did then he did the same thing with his slogan. It is that simple. What is odd is that no one knew of Bibi's slogan.

[JMHO]

Let me guess, Judenrein can be interpreted to mean that the Jews should be washed and cleaned?

Sorry, I won't tag who this is intended for...

[CountValentine]

I wonder who used this in his speech the other day?

"You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 'Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys'"

How should one take that?