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Peace agreements reached with:
United Arab Emirates - Sep. 2020
Bahrain - Sep. 2020
Serbia - Sep. 2020
Sudan - Oct. 2020
Morocco - Dec. 2020

Likely:
Saudi Arabia
Oman

Rumored:
Qatar  HMMM
Kuwait


« Last edited by jew on October 26, 2023, 12:40:44 AM »

Author Topic: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread  (Read 155843 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1080 on: November 02, 2023, 05:25:38 PM »
Same kind of black and white thinking as:
Name one white supremacist group that supports the D's?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1081 on: November 02, 2023, 05:31:49 PM »
Many Hollywood elite condemned the attacks. I am sure that surprised many if not most. Today some of the same one's still advocate for a free Palestine. Point being: Then didn't then or now believe any Jews should be killed.
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Offline AYHG

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1082 on: November 02, 2023, 05:37:03 PM »
Name one white supremacist group that supports the D's?

Many Hollywood elite condemned the attacks. I am sure that surprised many if not most. Today some of the same one's still advocate for a free Palestine. Point being: Then didn't then or now believe any Jews should be killed.

If you respond to the rest of my points, I'll respond to your question.
Otherwise, I'm sorry, but I'm busy tonight and don't have time today to respond anymore. (I would possibly take the time if I thought you were really interested in learning something instead of just reinforcing deeply-held views.)

But see above for the short answer - More black and white thinking.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1083 on: November 02, 2023, 05:42:30 PM »
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Offline Boruch999

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1084 on: November 02, 2023, 06:20:45 PM »
You quite clearly misunderstood CV, as did I initially. But I think over a few posts he demonstrated that his question was a genuine interst in how to refer to it in a way that *doesn't* demonize Israel but still reflects the reality on the ground. I couldn't come up with a term, and it seems so far no one else had either.

Sorry I'm late to the party.

Gaza is a very large area. 141 sq miles according to Google. That is many, many times bigger than any prison. It has very few if any of the characteristics of a prison. At best, prison is a poor analogy.

I don't know if there is a better analogy contained in any one English word, but that is not a reason to use a poor analogy.

(Is Planet Earth a prison? Very, very difficult for anyone to leave, impossible to import manufactured goods of any kind.)

The term is used to demonize Israel. It is used to deflect attention from the primary cause of the suffering of the people of Gaza, which is Hamas, whose leadership is (or at least was until recently) supported by a large portion of the people of Gaza.

Gaza is a territory that is under embargo because the people who run it are trying their best to murder the citizens of a neighboring territory en masse.

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1085 on: November 02, 2023, 06:25:30 PM »

Embargo, I knew someone could answer it.
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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1086 on: November 05, 2023, 06:58:57 PM »
you can argue Palestine=/= Hamas
chanting "from the river to the sea" (and some worse slogans) today = support for hamas or their violent tactics

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1087 on: November 06, 2023, 06:46:19 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/379797
Female Border Police officer, 20, critically injured in stabbing attack near Jerusalem's Old City; male comrade lightly injured.
Israel National News
Published: Nov 6, 2023, 8:32 AM (GMT+2)
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1088 on: November 06, 2023, 07:59:24 AM »
Visibly Jewish

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1089 on: November 06, 2023, 07:59:52 AM »
The point is that words matter, and everyone puts different meanings on words.

Visibly Jewish

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1090 on: November 07, 2023, 06:55:05 PM »
How would you describe Gaza?
Common terms used is "occupied" or "open air prison".
I look at it as "open air prison".
Where am I wrong?
What name would you give it?
If you lived there, what would you call it?

Yes, Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. Would Israel allow them to build factories and airports?
Since many have tried, and perhaps only 1 or 2 have been able to answer it, let me try to take a shot at it.

This is a great question that I have been pondering myself. I do not have a formed opinion, so let's walk through it together. Please pardon me if this seems incoherent, as I am writing my thoughts as I go – I'm basically thinking out loud.

To address the question of whether Gaza resembles an open-air prison, we should first decipher what are the characteristics that make a prison be a prison. I would say that to be characterized as a prison, you need three key ingredients: 1) a person needs to be confined and restricted, 2) they must've been placed there against their will, and 3) it needs to have been done as a form of punishment. For instance, if someone is boxed into a certain space, let's say sailors at sea, it's not quite a prison – they're there voluntarily, and it's hardly a punishment. Or, when someone gets involuntarily committed to a hospital, it's not imprisonment either since it's not meant as a punishment; it's more of a "get well soon" scenario.

Now, let's turn to the folks in Gaza. Are they confined to stay in Gaza? I don't think so. They do have freedom of movement within the area; in a prison you can’t typically roam about freely. And, they do have the freedom to leave if they can meet certain criteria. People do come and go from the strip; it is certainly very, very difficult but not impossible. Were they dragged into Gaza against their will? Not really, they pretty much chose it as their own adventure. Have they been confined as a form of punishment? No, it's more of a "tight security" arrangement. So, based on these factors, the ‘open-air prison’ label doesn't seem to be a perfect fit. So, what's the alternative? What shall we call it? That is the multi-million-dollar question!

There are a couple terms that we can possibly consider: siege, blockade, embargo, and such. So, I thought about who would have both extensive knowledge on linguistics, conflict etc; as well as an unbiased opinion on the situation. I figured ChatGPT fits the bill, so that's what I did. I asked the wizards of ChatGPT.

Following is my prompt to ChatGPT and its response:
Quote
How would you classify someone living in the following conditions: A territory surrounded by hostile neighbors with severely limited freedom of movement in or out of the territory for people or goods.
The situation you describe could classify someone as living in a besieged or isolated territory. This often results in limited access to resources, freedom of movement, and heightened security concerns due to hostile neighbors. It can be a challenging and precarious living condition.


Is it fair to describe it as a "sh**ty living situation"?
The term "sh**ty" is a subjective and informal way to describe a difficult or unfavorable living situation. Whether it's fair to use this term depends on the context and individual perspectives. Some people may use strong language to emphasize the severity of the conditions, while others may prefer more neutral or precise language. It's important to be mindful of the sensitivity of the situation and the potential impact of the language used.

I further asked ChatGPT:
Quote
Can you call ot an open air prison? And why?
Referring to a territory with severe restrictions on movement and access as an "open-air prison" is a term that is sometimes used to highlight the confinement and limited freedom experienced by the people living in such conditions. The term is used metaphorically to emphasize that individuals in this situation have their movements and access to goods and services restricted to a degree that resembles the confinement of a prison, but it occurs within a larger geographic area.

However, it's important to note that the use of the term "open-air prison" is often politically charged and can be a subject of debate, as it carries strong connotations and may not accurately capture the full complexity of the situation. Whether or not it is appropriate to use this term can depend on one's perspective and the specific circumstances in question, and it should be used with caution, taking into account the sensitivities and nuances of the situation.

So here you go, ChatGPT doesn't think that the term 'open-air-prison' is quite fitting and feels strongly that the term may be "politically charged and can be a subject of debate". In essence, when it comes to the open-air prison debate, Gaza seems more like a high-stakes security zone.



Finally, I couldn't help but notice that when Gaza gets labeled as an ‘open-air prison’, it tends to ruffle some feathers, people get agitated and frustrated. Part of the reason for this, I believe, is that if we consider the people in Gaza to be imprisoned, it implies that someone on the outside is responsible for this situation, namely, Israel. So, the more relevant question might be, if Gaza is an 'open-air-prison', who's the warden? And I think the answer to that would be none other than Hamas! All of the restrictions imposed on the territory are primarily for security reasons, a response to the violence perpetrated by Hamas (and others). Since Hamas is the party in control, they are the ones effectively keeping the people of Gaza in an ‘open-air-prison’ if you choose to call it that.

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1091 on: November 07, 2023, 07:16:00 PM »
Since many have tried, and perhaps only 1 or 2 have been able to answer it, let me try to take a shot at it.
Here is the answer to the direct question: Is Gaza an open-air prison.

Gaza is often referred to as an “open-air prison” due to the severe restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of the territory. This term is used to highlight the significant limitations on the daily lives of Palestinians living in Gaza, including their ability to access basic necessities, healthcare, education, and employment opportunities. However, it is important to note that this characterization is a complex and contentious issue with differing perspectives.

The situation in Gaza can be understood by examining several key factors:

Geographical Constraints: Gaza is a small coastal strip located on the eastern Mediterranean coast, bordered by Israel and Egypt. It measures approximately 41 kilometers in length and 6 to 12 kilometers in width. With a population of over two million people, it is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. The limited land area and high population density exacerbate the challenges faced by Gazans.

Israeli Blockade: Since 2007, following the takeover of Gaza by Hamas, Israel has imposed a blockade on the territory. The blockade restricts the movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza through land, sea, and air. Israel argues that these measures are necessary for security reasons due to ongoing conflicts with Hamas and other militant groups operating in Gaza. Critics argue that the blockade amounts to collective punishment and violates international humanitarian law.

Movement Restrictions: The Israeli blockade severely restricts the movement of people in and out of Gaza. Palestinians living in Gaza face significant challenges when seeking medical treatment outside the territory or traveling for educational or professional purposes. Israel maintains strict control over border crossings, allowing only limited numbers of individuals to pass through for specific reasons such as medical emergencies or diplomatic travel.

Economic Challenges: The restrictions on imports and exports have had a detrimental impact on Gaza’s economy. The inability to export goods freely has led to high unemployment rates and limited economic growth. Gazans heavily rely on international aid to meet their basic needs, and the lack of economic opportunities has contributed to widespread poverty and dependency.

Infrastructure and Services: The blockade has also hindered the development and maintenance of essential infrastructure in Gaza. Access to clean water, electricity, and healthcare services is often compromised due to limited resources and restrictions on the importation of necessary materials.

Humanitarian Crisis: The combination of movement restrictions, economic challenges, and inadequate infrastructure has resulted in a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The United Nations has repeatedly expressed concern about the deteriorating living conditions, including food insecurity, inadequate healthcare, and limited access to education.

It is important to note that while many international organizations and human rights advocates describe the situation in Gaza as an “open-air prison,” this term is not universally accepted. Critics argue that it oversimplifies the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and fails to acknowledge Israel’s security concerns. They argue that Israel’s actions are justified by the need to protect its citizens from attacks launched from Gaza.

Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used:

United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) - www.unrwa.org
Human Rights Watch - www.hrw.org
Amnesty International - www.amnesty.org
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1092 on: November 07, 2023, 07:19:41 PM »
Here is the answer to the direct question: Is Gaza an open-air prison.

Gaza is often referred to as an “open-air prison” due to the severe restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of the territory. This term is used to highlight the significant limitations on the daily lives of Palestinians living in Gaza, including their ability to access basic necessities, healthcare, education, and employment opportunities. However, it is important to note that this characterization is a complex and contentious issue with differing perspectives.

The situation in Gaza can be understood by examining several key factors:

Geographical Constraints: Gaza is a small coastal strip located on the eastern Mediterranean coast, bordered by Israel and Egypt. It measures approximately 41 kilometers in length and 6 to 12 kilometers in width. With a population of over two million people, it is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. The limited land area and high population density exacerbate the challenges faced by Gazans.

Israeli Blockade: Since 2007, following the takeover of Gaza by Hamas, Israel has imposed a blockade on the territory. The blockade restricts the movement of goods and people in and out of Gaza through land, sea, and air. Israel argues that these measures are necessary for security reasons due to ongoing conflicts with Hamas and other militant groups operating in Gaza. Critics argue that the blockade amounts to collective punishment and violates international humanitarian law.

Movement Restrictions: The Israeli blockade severely restricts the movement of people in and out of Gaza. Palestinians living in Gaza face significant challenges when seeking medical treatment outside the territory or traveling for educational or professional purposes. Israel maintains strict control over border crossings, allowing only limited numbers of individuals to pass through for specific reasons such as medical emergencies or diplomatic travel.

Economic Challenges: The restrictions on imports and exports have had a detrimental impact on Gaza’s economy. The inability to export goods freely has led to high unemployment rates and limited economic growth. Gazans heavily rely on international aid to meet their basic needs, and the lack of economic opportunities has contributed to widespread poverty and dependency.

Infrastructure and Services: The blockade has also hindered the development and maintenance of essential infrastructure in Gaza. Access to clean water, electricity, and healthcare services is often compromised due to limited resources and restrictions on the importation of necessary materials.

Humanitarian Crisis: The combination of movement restrictions, economic challenges, and inadequate infrastructure has resulted in a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The United Nations has repeatedly expressed concern about the deteriorating living conditions, including food insecurity, inadequate healthcare, and limited access to education.

It is important to note that while many international organizations and human rights advocates describe the situation in Gaza as an “open-air prison,” this term is not universally accepted. Critics argue that it oversimplifies the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and fails to acknowledge Israel’s security concerns. They argue that Israel’s actions are justified by the need to protect its citizens from attacks launched from Gaza.

Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used:

United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) - www.unrwa.org
Human Rights Watch - www.hrw.org
Amnesty International - www.amnesty.org

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1093 on: November 07, 2023, 08:26:08 PM »


Here is the answer to the direct question: Is Gaza an open-air prison.

Gaza is often referred to as an “open-air prison” due to the severe restrictions on the movement of people and goods in and out of the territory. This term is used to highlight the significant limitations on the daily lives of Palestinians living in Gaza, including their ability to access basic necessities, healthcare, education, and employment opportunities. However, it is important to note that this characterization is a complex and contentious issue with differing perspectives.
What are you trying to say?

This response is more less word for word to the ChatGPT answer I received and provided.

The rest is just some facts, details and circumstances of Gaza and the conflict in general.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1094 on: November 07, 2023, 08:28:30 PM »
What are you trying to say?
Wouldn't it have been better to just ask the question directly?
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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1095 on: November 07, 2023, 08:35:07 PM »
ChatGPT doesn't think. It's a predictive language tool.

Diminishing the Israeli blockade, no matter how legitimate you believe the security motivations are, undermines your position.


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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1096 on: November 07, 2023, 08:43:10 PM »
Wouldn't it have been better to just ask the question directly?
Well, your question was if there's pushback for the term 'open-air-prison', what other term would nore accurately apply to Gaza.

When I asked ChatGPT I didn't want to get an answer that "some might refer to Gaza as an open-air-prison" or, that its a complex issue and difficul to answer. So instead, I described the situation of Gaza and wanted to see how ChatGPT would choose to call it. After getting the answer I then specifically asked if it could be called an open-air-prison and got the "it's complicated" response, as you did.

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Re: Peace In The Middle East Master Thread
« Reply #1099 on: November 09, 2023, 04:53:16 PM »
Have you read the whole thing? Thoughts?
Skimmed through it can’t say I read every word. Seemed very balanced and interesting. I’m not a big follower of Israeli politics so I don’t know how accurate the portrayal of the right wing extremism is, certainly the quote from Bennet is a poor show of “extremism”. The “denazification” etc is a must for any attempt at peace.