Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 57514 times)

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2020, 05:39:46 PM »
LOL
I get it. Basically whatever the answer needs to be that you aren't inconvenienced
I know people who got sick then and now. You can't deny that in March people were dying from one second to the next and now that just isn't the case.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2020, 05:40:06 PM »
In the last 3 weeks, 2 of my friends buried their fathers. No, this wasn't in NY. The point is, people still do die from Covid, and the more people we allow to get infected, the greater the chances are that some will die.

You don't need to look very far to see infections that have happened at simchos. No, it was not "just a few." There have been cases every week since Tisha B'Av, and there were cases before the 3 weeks, as well. The more this happens, the more likely it is that locals get infected (see @Mikeoracle's frustrating personal account, and the resulting community spread). Dismissing it because we just can't be bothered is wrong, and I have yet to see any halachic basis for it.
CMIIW, but I don't think that's called community spread, community spread is when people get it by going about their daily life without knowing where it came from.
That may be true. So should we therefore say everyone is welcome? Or should we make an actual determination of where is there risk and take necessary precautions for those?
Broad restrictions lead to broad non compliance.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2020, 05:42:40 PM »
In the last 3 weeks, 2 of my friends buried their fathers. No, this wasn't in NY. The point is, people still do die from Covid, and the more people we allow to get infected, the greater the chances are that some will die.

You don't need to look very far to see infections that have happened at simchos. No, it was not "just a few." There have been cases every week since Tisha B'Av, and there were cases before the 3 weeks, as well. The more this happens, the more likely it is that locals get infected (see @Mikeoracle's frustrating personal account, and the resulting community spread). Dismissing it because we just can't be bothered is wrong, and I have yet to see any halachic basis for it.
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh. Obviously irresponsibility isn't a good thing but where do we draw the line? One person on this thread said that its selfish and your killing people to break the 14 day quarantine. So if people say things like that how will we ever have a healthy approach to it?.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2020, 05:44:35 PM »
CMIIW, but I don't think that's called community spread

You're right. Edited to reflect that I meant spread to locals within the community.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2020, 05:46:54 PM »
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.
The car analogy is still bad. But I'll play along:

We put traffic lights at  busy intersections to save lives. Imagine if everyone who got to a red light got to decide whether or not they thought it was safe to proceed. Sure, most of the time, people would guess right. But all it takes is 1 time for someone to guess wrong for it to be bad.

The 14 day quarantine is a traffic light. Individuals don't get to decide if it applies to them or not.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2020, 05:47:41 PM »
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh. Obviously irresponsibility isn't a good thing but where do we draw the line? One person on this thread said that its selfish and your killing people to break the 14 day quarantine. So if people say things like that how will we ever have a healthy approach to it?.
There are poskim who disagree. What I don't understand is why the Dina DeMalchusa element isn't getting more consideration.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2020, 05:48:10 PM »
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh. Obviously irresponsibility isn't a good thing but where do we draw the line? One person on this thread said that its selfish and your killing people to break the 14 day quarantine. So if people say things like that how will we ever have a healthy approach to it?.

I have yet to see a posek put in writing any halachic basis for not needing to take precautions or listen to EOs or medical directives. All I've seen is people doing what they want to do, when they want to do it, and blaming it on whatever boich svara or nameless posek is convenient to them at the moment.
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Offline yaakov35

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2020, 05:49:25 PM »


. All I've seen is people doing what they want to do, when they want to do it, and blaming it on whatever boich svara or nameless posek is convenient to them at the moment.

Can you reuse my own line on me? Is that even legal? Like breaking quarantine

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2020, 05:49:39 PM »
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.

And yet we still implement rules, like stop signs, traffic lights, speed limits, and no drinking or texting while driving. Have a wedding, drive a car. Take precautions and follow the rules.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2020, 05:50:56 PM »

Can you reuse my own line on me? Is that even legal? Like breaking quarantine

In case you don't remember, I asked days ago of both you and @aygart to provide any halachic basis for ignoring the EO. I'm still waiting on an answer.
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Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2020, 05:51:23 PM »

This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
We know why Otisville davens nusach sefard.

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2020, 05:52:38 PM »

Thats because of no tachnun. Not necessarily because that's the nussach everyone there davens.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2020, 05:53:12 PM »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2020, 05:54:07 PM »
The wholesale bashing of other Jewish communities and hashkafos is unnecessary and uncalled for. It serves no purpose.
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Offline oldguy

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2020, 05:56:07 PM »
There are poskim who disagree. What I don't understand is why the Dina DeMalchusa element isn't getting more consideration.
In case you don't remember, I asked days ago of both you and @aygart to provide any halachic basis for ignoring the EO. I'm still waiting on an answer.
Does it say anywhere in Daled Chelkei Shulchan Aruch anything implying Dina D'Malchusa besides regarding to money matters?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 06:16:29 PM by oldguy »

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2020, 06:07:48 PM »
Does it saw anywhere in Daled Chelkei Shulchan Aruch anything implying Dina D'Malchusa besides regarding to money matters?

Sorry, I'll be the first to admit I'm no talmid chacham. If you're saying that we are under no obligation to follow the law of our secular governments in areas that are not monetary, please educate me. This is the first I'm hearing of such a concept.
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Offline oldguy

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2020, 06:13:31 PM »
Sorry, I'll be the first to admit I'm no talmid chacham. If you're saying that we are under no obligation to follow the law of our secular governments in areas that are not monetary, please educate me. This is the first I'm hearing of such a concept.
There is a concept of הוה מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות, שאלמלא, איש את רעהו חיים בלעו. but the whole Halacha of Dina D'Malchusa comes from the concept of eminent domain (Not exactly that concept, but similar, as the king has the right to take all your $ so he has the right to make laws about them), and that would only apply to monetary matters (Machlokes if Karka and Metaltilim or only 1 of them).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting at all into the discussion how we should go on in life, I'm just bringing up a point that all discussions regarding Dina D'Malchusa are not relevant, If you want to go into Pikuach Nefesh or Safek Pikuach nefesh that's another discussion.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 06:30:12 PM by oldguy »

Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2020, 06:14:33 PM »
The wholesale bashing of other Jewish communities and hashkafos is unnecessary and uncalled for. It serves no purpose.
Agreed. But the bulk of these arguments are because of these differences in hashkafa. My line about Otisville comes from a feature, not a bug. I'm not bashing, it's reality; and explains why these debates here about the laws just go in circles.

They're different universes. @yaakov35 is correct.

(Reposting because I mistakenly deleted.)

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #118 on: August 24, 2020, 06:25:21 PM »
What I'm getting out of this is that it's important for everyone ELSE to keep up the restrictions so that peoplevwho wish can do whatever they want.

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #119 on: August 24, 2020, 06:49:36 PM »
What I'm getting out of this is that it's important for everyone ELSE to keep up the restrictions so that peoplevwho wish can do whatever they want.
Who’s everyone else?
When should these restrictions end?
NY has had under 1 percent test positive for over 2 weeks and yet there is no end in sight to these crazy restrictions.