Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 57537 times)

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2020, 07:06:20 PM »
Who’s everyone else?
When should these restrictions end?
NY has had under 1 percent test positive for over 2 weeks and yet there is no end in sight to these crazy restrictions.
If only the city was doing something to ensure that the infection rate remains low. Drawing a blank.

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #121 on: August 24, 2020, 07:31:10 PM »
If only the city was doing something to ensure that the infection rate remains low. Drawing a blank.
But again. What’s the endgame with all of this?

People aren’t listening because they see this rules and no indication of them ending even with a very low caseload. Remember how we were all sold on flattening the curve?

Online Euclid

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2020, 07:31:36 PM »


Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2020, 08:03:14 PM »
But again. What’s the endgame with all of this?

People aren’t listening because they see this rules and no indication of them ending even with a very low caseload. Remember how we were all sold on flattening the curve?
Nationally, the curve isn't flat. Hence the out of state quarantines.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2020, 08:03:56 PM »
There is a concept of הוה מתפלל בשלומה של מלכות, שאלמלא, איש את רעהו חיים בלעו. but the whole Halacha of Dina D'Malchusa comes from the concept of eminent domain (Not exactly that concept, but similar, as the king has the right to take all your $ so he has the right to make laws about them), and that would only apply to monetary matters (Machlokes if Karka and Metaltilim or only 1 of them).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting at all into the discussion how we should go on in life, I'm just bringing up a point that all discussions regarding Dina D'Malchusa are not relevant, If you want to go into Pikuach Nefesh or Safek Pikuach nefesh that's another discussion.

Interesting. So in your opinion, Dina D'Malchusa is only relevant to monetary issues and does not apply to any other laws?
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Offline oldguy

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #125 on: August 24, 2020, 08:08:15 PM »
Interesting. So in your opinion, Dina D'Malchusa is only relevant to monetary issues and does not apply to any other laws?
It's not my opinion, Look in the Gemara Rishhonim, Shulchan Aruch etc. That's all where it is discussed....

Not saying that someone shouldn't listen to the law, but this Halacha is not relevant..

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2020, 08:13:38 PM »
But again. What’s the endgame with all of this?

People aren’t listening because they see this rules and no indication of them ending even with a very low caseload. Remember how we were all sold on flattening the curve?

No one is selling flattening the curve right now, and the restrictions in place now are absolutely nothing like the ones imposed when flattening the curve was the goal. The goals evolve, and the rules change to help meet the goals. The goal right now is to keep the amount of cases low. The way to do that is by limiting the size of gatherings, by wearing masks when in close proximity to others, and by people from other locales quarantining before mingling in our communities. The disregard for these rules is the reason we keep seeing new cases in the frum communities.

The endgame is healthy people. Forget the politicians and their games. We're disregarding doctors and mainstream medical advice. It's time to stop blaming the politicians. We're not listening to the rules because we can't be bothered, because we think we're above the rules, and because we value the convenience of living our lives the way we want to over someone else's health. The excuses need to stop.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 08:17:17 PM by Lurker »
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2020, 08:16:14 PM »
It's not my opinion, Look in the Gemara Rishhonim, Shulchan Aruch etc. That's all where it is discussed....

Not saying that someone shouldn't listen to the law, but this Halacha is not relevant..

Ok, but I asked if there is any halachic basis to ignore the EO. Is there?
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Online Euclid

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2020, 08:16:46 PM »
No one is selling flattening the curve right now, and the restrictions in place now are absolutely nothing like the one imposed when flattening the curve was the goal. The goals evolve, and the rules change to help meet the goals. The goal right now is to keep the about of cases low. The way to do that is by limiting the size of gatherings, by wearing masks when in close proximity to others, and by people from other locales quarantining before mingling in our communities. The disregard for these rules is the reason we keep seeing new cases in the frum communities.

The endgame is healthy people. Forget the politicians and their games. We're disregarding doctors and mainstream medical advice. It's time to stop blaming the politicians. We're not listening to the rules because we can't be bothered, because we think we're above the rules, and because we value the convenience of living our lives the way we want to over someone else's health. The excuses need to stop.
+1

Offline oldguy

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2020, 08:17:52 PM »
Ok, but I asked if there is any halachic basis to ignore the EO. Is there?
What Halachic basis is there to have to listen a a EO?

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2020, 08:19:09 PM »
what Halachic basis is there to have to listen a a EO?

Are you saying there's no basis in halacha for having to follow the laws of a secular government when they don't contradict halacha?
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Offline Afrages6

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #131 on: August 24, 2020, 08:23:08 PM »
Nationally, the curve isn't flat. Hence the out of state quarantines.
So therefore we have to have 50 person weddings and can’t sit inside a restaurant?

Offline oldguy

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #132 on: August 24, 2020, 08:26:50 PM »
Are you saying there's no basis in halacha for having to follow the laws of a secular government when they don't contradict halacha?
Besides using common sense when needed, and besides monetary matters, what Halacha should apply to that?

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #133 on: August 24, 2020, 08:31:17 PM »
No one is selling flattening the curve right now, and the restrictions in place now are absolutely nothing like the ones imposed when flattening the curve was the goal. The goals evolve, and the rules change to help meet the goals. The goal right now is to keep the amount of cases low. The way to do that is by limiting the size of gatherings, by wearing masks when in close proximity to others, and by people from other locales quarantining before mingling in our communities. The disregard for these rules is the reason we keep seeing new cases in the frum communities.

The endgame is healthy people. Forget the politicians and their games. We're disregarding doctors and mainstream medical advice. It's time to stop blaming the politicians. We're not listening to the rules because we can't be bothered, because we think we're above the rules, and because we value the convenience of living our lives the way we want to over someone else's health. The excuses need to stop.
Ok so what is the new evolving philosophy? Is the point in keeping the cases low (assuming the curve will be flattened regardless) to delay the inevitable, or is it to buy time until a vaccine can eradicate covid, something that is looking somewhat unlikely at the moment? The cost benefit of shuttering or stifling the economy, schools, etc. was a far more powerful argument when the goal was to flatten the curve that would otherwise swallow up our healthcare system and kill millions. It is a much harder argument to make now that the goals have shifted.

That does not mean that we should throw all caution on to the wind.
At least some of the common sense precautions you mentioned are minimally invasive and should be given consideration, especially when it comes to weddings where there has been spread in the past few weeks but the
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 08:38:22 PM by Yard sale »

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #134 on: August 24, 2020, 08:34:43 PM »
Ok so what is the new evolving philosophy? Is the point in keeping the cases low (assuming the curve will be flattened regardless) to delay the inevitable, or is it to buy time until a vaccine can eradicate covid, something that is looking somewhat unlikely at the moment? The cost benefit of shuttering or stifling the economy, schools, etc. is a far more powerful argument when the goal was to flatten the curve that would otherwise swallow up our healthcare system and kill millions. It is a much harder argument to make now that the goals have shifted.
Wearing masks and limiting indoor gatherings stifles the economy?

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2020, 08:39:25 PM »
Wearing masks and limiting indoor gatherings stifles the economy?
I was addressing the government mandated regulations. I misread your post. sorry

Offline gozalim

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #136 on: August 24, 2020, 10:15:39 PM »
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.
so a couple of deaths is OK
by car or by covid

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2020, 10:21:11 PM »
I know people don't like it, but I'm going to use the car analogy. People die in car accidents and yet we still drive cars (just this week klal yisroel lost a 19 y/o), there is some point where we go back to normal life. The situation now is very different than it was in March.

99% of automobile fatalities are due to human error. This is why there are extensive traffic laws-to minimize these automotive deaths. The same applies to covid - due diligence should be applied to ensure that as many deaths as possible are avoided and not caused by human negligence. (I'm not going into the numbers of annual deaths per driven mile-it's a moot point.) "Normalcy" is not the goal - preserving human life is.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #138 on: August 24, 2020, 10:55:05 PM »
If wearing a mask and social distancing can save lives what is the downside? Being uncomfortable for a short period of time? And if it turns out that it doesn't really help, what have you lost?

There is an uptick in cases in the Frum communities in the Tri-State area. If we wait till we know that there is a spike and it is spreading like it was in March and April WE ARE TOO LATE. The only way to prevent the virus from spreading again is to act now before it gets out of control.

In my neighborhood Wal-Mart, Target, Shoprite etc...   almost 100% mask compliance by the non-jews, walk into a Shul not a mask to be seen. For hundreds of years jews have been blamed for pandemics and for spreading disease, based on the way certain segments of the Frum communities are behaving maybe there are right.

Grow up, stop acting like a selfish spoiled child and put on a mask if for no other reason than that is what the rest of society is doing.       

Offline hllulbh1

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #139 on: August 24, 2020, 11:20:35 PM »
My Rav used the car analogy as an analogy for his halachic psak that the broad restrictions are not halachically valid (obviously there was more to it than just that). So I would follow the daas torah of the Rav, even if you dismiss the argument based on your laymen's assessment.

I was in the ER with my father (who was unconscious at the time) after he had a cardiac arrest and the head doctor said, "Leave him be, don't do anything and let nature take its course. He is older and what would be his quality of life even if he survives?". Needless to say, we ignored the doctor and G-d willing my father this week will be attending his 8th grandchild's wedding in the 5 years since. This is not an isolated case of doctors sharing such advice, look at Chayim Aruchim's website and you will see this is a prevalent conventional wisdom within the medical field.

My point? Just because doctors say their opinion doesn't make it daas torah. Do they take into account the value of tefilah b'tzibur or pilpul chaveirim in yeshiva or learning in shul? How about the geulah that can be brought about by being mesameich chason v'kallah or the power of a bracha someone can give or receive at a wedding? Zoom as a substitute is marginalizing the value of Jewish communal life. Where these world changing powers stand in a case of pikuach nefesh is for poskim to determine. But it is not right to dismiss them as frivolities of Jewish cultural life that are readily expendable. The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.

As to dina demalchusa, where I live the government restrictions for shul were made tighter as a balance for allowing indoor dining. The lead poseik in town said that dina demalchusa dina does not apply since it makes no sense, and the very restrictive Vaad HaRobonim followed his psak.