Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 57574 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #140 on: August 24, 2020, 11:24:11 PM »

This is why we aren't MO....
Literally an alternate universe.
That is why? Got it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #141 on: August 24, 2020, 11:26:43 PM »
Nationally, the curve isn't flat. Hence the out of state quarantines.
Dunno, the charts for places like FL compared to NY/NJ look almost exactly like the charts everyone was using to illustrate flattening the curve back in March.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2020, 11:27:11 PM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hllulbh1

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #143 on: August 24, 2020, 11:27:27 PM »
The 14 day quarantine in NY is a speed limit, and people do decide how they want to respond accordingly. If it isn't being enforced, is it really a law?

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2020, 11:28:16 PM »
Bde on your friends fathers. But ask any poskim and they will tell you that covid now in the local frum communities is not Pikuach nefesh.
Can you explain how someone catching it now is any less of a sakanah for that person that it had been?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online yelped

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2020, 11:42:18 PM »
My Rav used the car analogy as an analogy for his halachic psak that the broad restrictions are not halachically valid (obviously there was more to it than just that). So I would follow the daas torah of the Rav, even if you dismiss the argument based on your laymen's assessment.

I was in the ER with my father (who was unconscious at the time) after he had a cardiac arrest and the head doctor said, "Leave him be, don't do anything and let nature take its course. He is older and what would be his quality of life even if he survives?". Needless to say, we ignored the doctor and G-d willing my father this week will be attending his 8th grandchild's wedding in the 5 years since. This is not an isolated case of doctors sharing such advice, look at Chayim Aruchim's website and you will see this is a prevalent conventional wisdom within the medical field.

My point? Just because doctors say their opinion doesn't make it daas torah. Do they take into account the value of tefilah b'tzibur or pilpul chaveirim in yeshiva or learning in shul? How about the geulah that can be brought about by being mesameich chason v'kallah or the power of a bracha someone can give or receive at a wedding? Zoom as a substitute is marginalizing the value of Jewish communal life. Where these world changing powers stand in a case of pikuach nefesh is for poskim to determine. But it is not right to dismiss them as frivolities of Jewish cultural life that are readily expendable. The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.

As to dina demalchusa, where I live the government restrictions for shul were made tighter as a balance for allowing indoor dining. The lead poseik in town said that dina demalchusa dina does not apply since it makes no sense, and the very restrictive Vaad HaRobonim followed his psak.
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha. Moiser Nefesh to attend a Simcha? Really?

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2020, 11:49:26 PM »
Can you explain how someone catching it now is any less of a sakanah for that person that it had been?
Fact is people aren't getting as sick. As to why I do not have the Answers.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2020, 11:54:11 PM »
Fact is people aren't getting as sick. As to why I do not have the Answers.
Maybe it has more to do with who is more out and about and going to these weddings combined with it being only specific incidents where those at most risk were not around. That would mean that to use this to totally ignore it would be the best way to make that change.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2020, 11:54:47 PM »
In case you don't remember, I asked days ago of both you and @aygart to provide any halachic basis for ignoring the EO. I'm still waiting on an answer.
I not getting involved in that
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yaakov35

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #149 on: August 24, 2020, 11:55:38 PM »
Maybe it has more to do with who is more out and about and going to these weddings combined with it being only specific incidents where those at most risk were not around. That would mean that to use this to totally ignore it would be the best way to make that change.
Have you been to a wedding or shul recently? Old people are out and about. This isn't florida and only the younger demographic is getting it. Older people are also and aren't getting as sick.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #150 on: August 24, 2020, 11:57:42 PM »
Have you been to a wedding or shul recently? Old people are out and about. This isn't florida and only the younger demographic is getting it. Older people are also and aren't getting as sick.
No weddings since i in aveilus for another 2weeks. There are many who are still not or not as much. Many are not staying for as much of the wedding as they would have.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hllulbh1

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2020, 12:22:35 AM »
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha.

Look at the wedding halls and yeshivos and you will see that thousands of Yidden in your view “doesn’t give a hoot for someone else’s life.”

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2020, 12:36:18 AM »
Look at the wedding halls and yeshivos and you will see that thousands of Yidden in your view “doesn’t give a hoot for someone else’s life.”
You are correct. It is scary.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2020, 12:51:00 AM »
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha. Moiser Nefesh to attend a Simcha? Really?
Straw man alert. He actually made a great point.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2020, 08:39:55 AM »

 The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.


You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment. 



Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2020, 08:46:26 AM »
Dunno, the charts for places like FL compared to NY/NJ look almost exactly like the charts everyone was using to illustrate flattening the curve back in March.
The curve wasn't flat in March either.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2020, 08:55:46 AM »
The curve wasn't flat in March either.
Go transpose the charts on each other.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online EliJelly

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2020, 08:56:43 AM »
You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment.
That equation would be good if the population and lifestyles would be the same, additionally, Purim gatherings was a major spreader in NYC.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2020, 08:57:24 AM »
You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment.
+1000. Also the concept of bring moser nefesh during a mageifah seems foreign to me. Is there any precedent?

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2020, 09:00:30 AM »
That equation would be good if the population and lifestyles would be the same, additionally, Purim gatherings was a major spreader in NYC.
It is even more than that. It is likely that even before Purim it was too late.
Feelings don't care about your facts