Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 58789 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #160 on: August 25, 2020, 09:02:13 AM »
You are so correct. The virus first hit Westchester and Teaneck-Bergenfield area yet the number of deaths there were way less than in the NYC area. The MO Rabbi's realized the tefillah b'tizbur or attending weddings are not in the criteria for being moseir nefesh. Our "core values" is the preservation of life which is why that "core value" trumps almost every other Commandment. 




In addition to this https://www.queensjewishlink.com/index.php/opinion/36-message-from-r-schonfeld-r-yoel-schonfeld/2984-cancel-culture-comes-to-orthodoxy
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #161 on: August 25, 2020, 09:02:49 AM »
MO shuls were mostly open for purim also, though there were widespread quarantines if you were potentially exposed to even 1 case.

This caution saved lives. Period.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #162 on: August 25, 2020, 09:05:54 AM »
My Rav used the car analogy as an analogy for his halachic psak that the broad restrictions are not halachically valid (obviously there was more to it than just that). So I would follow the daas torah of the Rav, even if you dismiss the argument based on your laymen's assessment.

I was in the ER with my father (who was unconscious at the time) after he had a cardiac arrest and the head doctor said, "Leave him be, don't do anything and let nature take its course. He is older and what would be his quality of life even if he survives?". Needless to say, we ignored the doctor and G-d willing my father this week will be attending his 8th grandchild's wedding in the 5 years since. This is not an isolated case of doctors sharing such advice, look at Chayim Aruchim's website and you will see this is a prevalent conventional wisdom within the medical field.

My point? Just because doctors say their opinion doesn't make it daas torah. Do they take into account the value of tefilah b'tzibur or pilpul chaveirim in yeshiva or learning in shul? How about the geulah that can be brought about by being mesameich chason v'kallah or the power of a bracha someone can give or receive at a wedding? Zoom as a substitute is marginalizing the value of Jewish communal life. Where these world changing powers stand in a case of pikuach nefesh is for poskim to determine. But it is not right to dismiss them as frivolities of Jewish cultural life that are readily expendable. The polar opposite responses of MO and chasidic/yeshivish responses may have something to do with this equation. Noone wants more deaths, but some would be moseir nefesh to a greater degree than others for these core values.

As to dina demalchusa, where I live the government restrictions for shul were made tighter as a balance for allowing indoor dining. The lead poseik in town said that dina demalchusa dina does not apply since it makes no sense, and the very restrictive Vaad HaRobonim followed his psak.

If I'm reading this correctly, you have 3 points: a) your Rav gave a psak for your city that the local EOs are not valid al pi halacha, b) Jews value life more than the medical establishment, and c) Jewish communal life has a value so great that we should be ok taking certain risks in order to preserve it.

Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.

To point B: I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. However, the facts on the ground seem to contradict this. When doctors are asking us to take certain precautions in order to keep people from getting sick, and we blatantly ignore them because we know better, it sends a contradictory message. Why is it that once someone is sick Klal Yisroel moves heaven and earth to help them and keep them alive, but when it comes to keeping people from getting sick in the first place, we shrug our shoulders and say "acceptable risk?"

To point C: we're past the point of shuls being closed in almost every place. Tefila b'tzibur is not at risk. Learning in a beis medrash is not at risk. We may need to limit the amount of people in a room at a time, but that's not new. There have been fire codes and capacity limits since the 1920's. Masks don't prevent communal events. They may be uncomfortable and inconvenient, but they are stopping Jews from doing what we feel is essential to our Yiddishkeit.

So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?

Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.
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Offline yelped

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #163 on: August 25, 2020, 09:11:11 AM »
Straw man alert. He actually made a great point.
No, those were his words exactly. He believes in being Moiser Nefesh to attend a wedding in person without testing, without quarantining beforehand, and without wearing a mask or observing any semblance of social distancing, over attending a wedding over Zoom if you are from OOT.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #164 on: August 25, 2020, 09:12:43 AM »
If I'm reading this correctly, you have 3 points: a) your Rav gave a psak for your city that the local EOs are not valid al pi halacha, b) Jews value life more than the medical establishment, and c) Jewish communal life has a value so great that we should be ok taking certain risks in order to preserve it.

Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.

To point B: I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. However, the facts on the ground seem to contradict this. When doctors are asking us to take certain precautions in order to keep people from getting sick, and we blatantly ignore them because we know better, it sends a contradictory message. Why is it that once someone is sick Klal Yisroel moves heaven and earth to help them and keep them alive, but when it comes to keeping people from getting sick in the first place, we shrug our shoulders and say "acceptable risk?"

To point C: we're past the point of shuls being closed in almost every place. Tefila b'tzibur is not at risk. Learning in a beis medrash is not at risk. We may need to limit the amount of people in a room at a time, but that's not new. There have been fire codes and capacity limits since the 1920's. Masks don't prevent communal events. They may be uncomfortable and inconvenient, but they are stopping Jews from doing what we feel is essential to our Yiddishkeit.

So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?

Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.
Also, generally Halacha demands us to be MORE cautious than the medical consensus, not less.

And back to what I was saying, there are ways suggested to mitigate the risk (outdoors, capacity limits, mask wearing, distancing, and OOT people either joining remotely or quarantining). I'm not sure you can justify disregarding them while also saying that Halacha values life over (almost) everything else.

Offline SSLPhD

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #165 on: August 25, 2020, 09:32:14 AM »
...
Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but this last paragraph seems to put all the responsibility on the attendee.  The people making the simcha have just as much responsibility not to invite those that may import disease, limit wedding size, and/or require masks.
44/50, 46/63

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2020, 09:33:40 AM »
I agree with most of what you wrote, but this last paragraph seems to put all the responsibility on the attendee.  The people making the simcha have just as much responsibility not to invite those that may import disease, limit wedding size, and/or require masks.
I mean it's probably the parents, but yes.

I would say that it's tough as people from OOT could quarantine or otherwise be in NY anyway. So maybe a disclaimer in the invite is appropriate.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2020, 09:42:48 AM »
I agree with most of what you wrote, but this last paragraph seems to put all the responsibility on the attendee.  The people making the simcha have just as much responsibility not to invite those that may import disease, limit wedding size, and/or require masks.

The responsibility lies with more than one party, and I don't intend to point fingers. The point is that the culture is dangerous.
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2020, 10:12:13 AM »
Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.
I'm going to make an educated guess (based on @hllulbh1 location) that this rav is from the most highly respected poskim in America. It's obvious why such a psak isn't publicized in writing or outside the community it's intended for.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2020, 10:25:06 AM »
So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?
The sad state of our political environment leaves medical consensus and science unscathed, I think most people are very reluctant to rely on what the medical establishment is pushing. We've seen time and again the medical advice change drastically based on political motives. Another terrible effect of this will be the rise of the anti vax movement.

I have no plans to wear a mask in shul based on wishy-washy medical advice, the only thing that would change that is the rav of my shul requiring masks.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #170 on: August 25, 2020, 10:31:33 AM »
The sad state of our political environment leaves medical consensus and science unscathed, I think most people are very reluctant to rely on what the medical establishment is pushing. We've seen time and again the medical advice change drastically based on political motives. Another terrible effect of this will be the rise of the anti vax movement.

I have no plans to wear a mask in shul based on wishy-washy medical advice, the only thing that would change that is the rav of my shul requiring masks.
But why? I don't understand refusing to take a precaution that costs almost nothing just because it isn't 'required'.

If we're keeping up the car analogy, masks seem like seat belts.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 10:34:55 AM by shaulyaakov »

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #171 on: August 25, 2020, 10:37:31 AM »
But why? I don't understand refusing to take a precaution that costs almost nothing just because it isn't 'required'.
1) I find masks extremely uncomfortable
2) I don't live my life doing extra things that aren't required, I certainly don't feel the need to be stricter than the rav. If the rav recommended but didn't require it I would consider wearing a mask.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #172 on: August 25, 2020, 10:39:11 AM »
1) I find masks extremely uncomfortable
2) I don't live my life doing extra things that aren't required, I certainly don't feel the need to be stricter than the rav. If the rav recommended but didn't require it I would consider wearing a mask.
Do you wear masks in other places other than shuls?

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #173 on: August 25, 2020, 10:45:34 AM »
If we're keeping up the car analogy, masks seem like seat belts.
Not at all. The protection of a mask is more for others.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline NTorch

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #174 on: August 25, 2020, 10:45:44 AM »
But why? I don't understand refusing to take a precaution that costs almost nothing just because it isn't 'required'.

If we're keeping up the car analogy, masks seem like seat belts.

Agree 100%.  You may think that you don't need a mask because you have antibodies, or because you think no one in the community is at risk, but having worn a mask for davening since May (when we restarted minyanim) I dont see a reason not to wear one.

In my community masks are required for all shul minyanim, indoors or out as well as shul approved backyard minyanim. We have been running a backyard mincha/maariv in my yard since May. Many people bring outside family for Shabbos and we have had quite a few chassidish men from BP. Everyone wears a mask, even those from communities which are mask optional.

I agree with the car analogy - if you don't get hit you may not need the seat belt, but you wear it just in case. So too here, if no one is carrying then you don't need the mask, but if even one person is asymptomatically transmitting the virus, doesn't it make sense to have protection?

Offline NTorch

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #175 on: August 25, 2020, 10:46:34 AM »
Not at all. The protection of a mask is more for others.

The seat belt protects more than just the person wearing it too.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #176 on: August 25, 2020, 10:47:47 AM »
Do you wear masks in other places other than shuls?
Non jewish stores - always
Jewish stores - when required
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #177 on: August 25, 2020, 10:49:58 AM »
Non jewish stores - always
Jewish stores - when required
Doesn't chillul Hashem apply even when the onlookers are Jewish? Also, even in Jewish stores, there are plenty of non Jewish workers. Just trying to understand the difference.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #178 on: August 25, 2020, 10:51:25 AM »
Doesn't chillul Hashem apply even when the onlookers are Jewish?
Only when you're actually doing something wrong
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #179 on: August 25, 2020, 10:55:29 AM »
2) I don't live my life doing extra things that aren't required, I certainly don't feel the need to be stricter than the rav. If the rav recommended but didn't require it I would consider wearing a mask.
I think that's what the first two little piggies said about 5 minutes before they had to run to the third piggies house.