Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 57545 times)

Offline oldguy

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #180 on: August 25, 2020, 11:08:15 AM »
I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.
I have yet to see any Halachic basis to an EO.

Offline hllulbh1

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #181 on: August 25, 2020, 11:15:47 AM »
I'm going to make an educated guess (based on @hllulbh1 location) that this rav is from the most highly respected poskim in America. It's obvious why such a psak isn't publicized in writing or outside the community it's intended for.

Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.

Offline chevron

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #182 on: August 25, 2020, 11:18:00 AM »
If I'm reading this correctly, you have 3 points: a) your Rav gave a psak for your city that the local EOs are not valid al pi halacha, b) Jews value life more than the medical establishment, and c) Jewish communal life has a value so great that we should be ok taking certain risks in order to preserve it.

Regarding point A: I don't doubt your version of the realities in your community. However, you have to understand that an anonymous DDFer posting about an anonymous Rav in an anonymous place giving a psak that isn't on paper... it just doesn't carry a lot of weight. I have yet to see a psak on paper by a Rov or BD explaining why EOs can or should be ignored.

To point B: I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. However, the facts on the ground seem to contradict this. When doctors are asking us to take certain precautions in order to keep people from getting sick, and we blatantly ignore them because we know better, it sends a contradictory message. Why is it that once someone is sick Klal Yisroel moves heaven and earth to help them and keep them alive, but when it comes to keeping people from getting sick in the first place, we shrug our shoulders and say "acceptable risk?"

To point C: we're past the point of shuls being closed in almost every place. Tefila b'tzibur is not at risk. Learning in a beis medrash is not at risk. We may need to limit the amount of people in a room at a time, but that's not new. There have been fire codes and capacity limits since the 1920's. Masks don't prevent communal events. They may be uncomfortable and inconvenient, but they are stopping Jews from doing what we feel is essential to our Yiddishkeit.

So really the only point of contention here is weddings. Let's look at that for a second. According to the science available to us right now, there are certain settings which have been documented as being responsible for spreading the virus at a very high rate. Restaurants are one; bars and nightclubs are another. In general, indoor gatherings present much more risk than outdoor ones. Without c"v comparing the holiness of our weddings to these other settings, we have to acknowledge that the functions of those settings are replicated at our weddings. There is loud music, drinking, singing, dancing, eating, prolonged contact at tables without masks, and all in indoor settings. Turns out, the things that make our weddings great also makes them hotspots. And you don't need to be a scientist to see that since Tisha B'Av, we've seen a very noticeable uptick in cases, almost always traced back to weddings. So now that we've ascertained the risks of our weddings, independent of EOs, how can we justify putting people's health at risk in order to be mesameach chosson v'kallah?

Anecdotally: there was a wedding near me last week. There was a Covid exposure from someone who wasn't wearing a mask, ironically, from CA... because in FL we need to import our exposures. The whole family, including chosson and kallah, spent a very miserable shabbos sheva brachos at home, scared for friends and family who may have gotten sick. I don't care how happy you may be making the young couple at the wedding, it can't outweigh the feelings of the next week or longer if people got sick at their wedding.

I didn't go all the way back to see this and was about to reply.. but now that I see your response 👌

So doctors don't value lives while Jews do.. but Jews know more than doctors since we have a monopoly on the value of life and we are currently dictating the priorities?

He worries about zoom culture . I worry about a future generation that sees no point in following medical guidance.

Theres always some askan who knows better!


Offline avromie7

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #183 on: August 25, 2020, 11:28:01 AM »
I think that's what the first two little piggies said about 5 minutes before they had to run to the third piggies house.
Do you have a halachic basis for that?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline SayWhat

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #184 on: August 25, 2020, 11:30:43 AM »
Do you have a halachic basis for that?
Yes, it is in the fifth volume of the SA.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #185 on: August 25, 2020, 11:34:36 AM »
Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.
I guess what frustrates me is that we're seemingly past the point where the governmental regulations and medical consensus (and yes, far more than 50% if doctors agree on this) are in direct conflict to the needs of living a full Jewish life.

There's nothing wrong with wearing a mask. You can work out the logistics of having socially distant minyanim in many cases or limiting weddings and preferring to have them outdoors weather permitting. It just seems that it doesn't make sense to do nothing, which is seemingly against all medical consensus.

I understand there are poskim privately saying not to worry about it, and for the life of me, I jut can't figure out the logic behind it.
I'm not

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2020, 11:40:00 AM »
Yes, it is in the fifth volume of the SA.
Is that the one which contains everything that proves whatever argument you are making at the time?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2020, 11:41:43 AM »
I have yet to see any Halachic basis to an EO.

I was raised that Dina D'Malchusa covers everything, unless it is in direct conflict with halacha. I was raised that we try to get laws we don't like changed, but we do not ignore them. You say there is no basis for this, and I'll have to verify this independently, but I have yet to see anything quoted from contemporary halacha that explicitly allows for laws to be broken or ignored if they aren't of a financial nature.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #188 on: August 25, 2020, 11:41:54 AM »
Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.
If you were not there then you are likely missing a tremendous amount of the nuance. Was it specific to being quarantined 14 days? Was it about minyanim or attending a wedding? Was it to not wear a mask? Was it to have the total disregard and to be moiser nefesh to attend a simcha as you had written?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hllulbh1

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2020, 11:44:10 AM »

So doctors don't value lives while Jews do.. but Jews know more than doctors since we have a monopoly on the value of life and we are currently dictating the priorities?


It is not about superiority, it is about priorities. Doctors provide information and then daas Torah processes it to determine the best approach for avodas Hashem. The doctors don't have the training to process that equation.


Theres always some askan who knows better!

I am only referencing Morei Ho'raah - Rabbonim, Rebbes and Roshei Yeshiva, (i.e. daas Torah) and not "some askan".

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2020, 11:47:02 AM »
Yes it was Rabbi Heinemann, and no, I was not in the meeting that this psak was verbally delivered. He had other rationales as well which will probably not be popular in this forum so I only mentioned the one which was specific to this City.

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc. The rebbes of tens of thousands and rabbonim and roshei yeshiva of many more having the same medical and governmental information as others, have made it clear that these measures are not warranted. There is a current within these threads that insists that anyone that follows this daas Torah guidance and lead is irresponsible, doesn't give a hoot about other's lives, is selfish and you or your rabbis are more responsible and know better. Sure, there are lots of strong arguments (particularly by Lurker and shaulyaakov), but if the daas torah that many have been following to successfully lead a vigorous Torah life have gotten them this far in life, why abandon them now because of arguments, many of which IMO sound very much about kochi v'otztem yadi, "We did this and We did that and that as why We didn't get it". You can be commended for following your rabbinic guidance while those following other broad rabbinic guidance are not vilified for doing so.

My real question, and I've brought this up numerous times, is less on the attitude to ignore the EOs and more on the ignoring of medical guidance. I was brought up in a culture which put great importance on doctors. To date, virtually all directives from Chabad Rabbonim instruct people to follow the guidance of the doctors. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was adamant throughout the years about taking the advice of a " rofeh yedid." So what I struggle with most of all, and again this isn't the first time I've asked this question, is on what basis are Rabbonim telling people to ignore medical advice? This isn't about a minority of doctors, or even a 50/50 machlokes. There is a broad consensus about certain measures that should be taken, and those measures are largely being ignored in many frum communities. I don't get it.
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Offline hllulbh1

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2020, 11:52:59 AM »
Was it specific to being quarantined 14 days? Was it about minyanim or attending a wedding? Was it to not wear a mask?
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2020, 11:55:20 AM »
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.

You understand that this bit of nuance is very different from what you posted regarding wholesale canceling of EOs in the name of preserving the frum culture and lifestyle, right?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2020, 12:02:44 PM »
My real question, and I've brought this up numerous times, is less on the attitude to ignore the EOs and more on the ignoring of medical guidance. I was brought up in a culture which put great importance on doctors. To date, virtually all directives from Chabad Rabbonim instruct people to follow the guidance of the doctors. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was adamant throughout the years about taking the advice of a " rofeh yedid." So what I struggle with most of all, and again this isn't the first time I've asked this question, is on what basis are Rabbonim telling people to ignore medical advice? This isn't about a minority of doctors, or even a 50/50 machlokes. There is a broad consensus about certain measures that should be taken, and those measures are largely being ignored in many frum communities. I don't get it.
And yet the antivax/antimaskers among Anash and Shluchim seems to keep growing.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2020, 12:04:59 PM »
And yet the antivax/antimaskers among Anash and Shluchim seems to keep growing.

Yep. And I don't get any of it. They don't even have "Daas Torah" to point to as an excuse.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2020, 12:08:17 PM »
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.

And this is the source to go out of town to a wedding? Really? His psak to have more than 25 people in shul wearing masks shows this? Are you for real?

My broadest point is that there is daas Torah that supports much of the chasunahs, non mask wearing, lack of social distancing, etc.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #196 on: August 25, 2020, 12:13:26 PM »
And this is the source to go out of town to a wedding? Really? His psak to have more than 25 people in shul wearing masks shows this? Are you for real?
Well, this has certainly been enlightening.

Now we have a game of broken telephone over what the Daas Torah on this actually is! So I guess we have to be "Machmir" to follow no measures, lest it turn out that it was included in the Daas Torah.

Offline aygart

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #197 on: August 25, 2020, 12:20:32 PM »
Well, this has certainly been enlightening.

Now we have a game of broken telephone over what the Daas Torah on this actually is! So I guess we have to be "Machmir" to follow no measures, lest it turn out that it was included in the Daas Torah.
This is not broken telephone but rather saying I will do whatever I want and blame it on daas torah even though it is the polar opposite of what that daas torah is saying.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yelped

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #198 on: August 25, 2020, 12:29:52 PM »
It was regarding a new mandate that indoor prayer services must be capped at 25 people or 25% capacity, whichever is less. Masks are worn by everyone in every shul, as the local Vaad has required.
That's a long winded way of saying I couldn't give a hoot for someone else's life and I will not take any precautions while attending an OOT Simcha, while I will tell everyone that this what Daas Torah said, even though that has no basis in reality.

Moiser Nefesh to attend a Simcha? Really?
FTFM. Just saying that going around saying that is a major chillul Hashem.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #199 on: August 25, 2020, 12:32:14 PM »
FTFM. Just saying that going around saying that is a major chillul Hashem.
It's not a chillul Hashem if you're not doing anything wrong, apparently.