Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 57533 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #500 on: September 29, 2020, 08:18:42 AM »
Didn’t Ner Yisroel do things by the book? Didn’t seem to help them.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1905054/outbreak-in-baltimore-more-than-50-bochrim-at-ner-yisroel-yeshiva-have-covid-19.html

I don't know what book Ner Yisroel is doing things by, and I'd have to assume that HS and BM have different policies, but HS has made some questionable calls. As of last week, they were requiring attendance after testing until results came back. FWIU, this included symptomatic students (at least one that I know of). I  don't know how much interaction, if any, there has been between HS and BM.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #501 on: September 29, 2020, 09:14:49 AM »
A bochur went home for Rosh Hashannah against yeshiva policy and brought it back
That’s kind of the point. There’s a big human nature component in all of this even when shuls and schools implement good policies. How many shuls did have strict signage and policies only to be foiled by those who were moreh heter because we they didn’t want to miss a yomim noraim davening.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #502 on: September 29, 2020, 09:22:22 AM »
That’s kind of the point. There’s a big human nature component in all of this even when shuls and schools implement good policies. How many shuls did have strict signage and policies only to be foiled by those who were moreh heter because we they didn’t want to miss a yomim noraim davening.
How many had strict signage and how many had strict policies is sadly a big discrepancy

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #503 on: September 29, 2020, 09:29:21 AM »
That’s kind of the point. There’s a big human nature component in all of this even when shuls and schools implement good policies. How many shuls did have strict signage and policies only to be foiled by those who were moreh heter because we they didn’t want to miss a yomim noraim davening.

You understand how much the silence and lack of guidance over the last few months plays a part in this, right? People have been hearing every excuse in the book about why precautions don't need to be taken and a general attitude of pretending the virus doesn't exist for months. You can't expect them to turn on a dime and magically take it seriously, especially when there has been a lack of unity or clarity in the current guidelines.
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Offline SayWhat

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #504 on: September 29, 2020, 12:54:44 PM »
You understand how much the silence and lack of guidance over the last few months plays a part in this, right? People have been hearing every excuse in the book about why precautions don't need to be taken and a general attitude of pretending the virus doesn't exist for months. You can't expect them to turn on a dime and magically take it seriously, especially when there has been a lack of unity or clarity in the current guidelines.
I heard personally from a Rov of a Shul on Erev Yom Kippur who told me that wearing a mask in shul is wrong because it doesn't make Shul feel welcoming and therefore he will not even recommend wearing a mask in Shul. Doctors only say that masks are required in public but when you ask them privately they'll tell you not to wear them. He also saw someone who wears a mask do something that he wouldn't do so therefore that's proof that it's all a "mishagas" anyways. :o :o :o

I was so dumfounded that an otherwise intelligent person can utter such nonsense I didn't even know where to start. It's conversations like these that lead me to believe that we have no hope.   

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #505 on: September 29, 2020, 01:02:21 PM »
I heard personally from a Rov of a Shul on Erev Yom Kippur who told me that wearing a mask in shul is wrong because it doesn't make Shul feel welcoming and therefore he will not even recommend wearing a mask in Shul. Doctors only say that masks are required in public but when you ask them privately they'll tell you not to wear them. He also saw someone who wears a mask do something that he wouldn't do so therefore that's proof that it's all a "mishagas" anyways. :o :o :o

I was so dumfounded that an otherwise intelligent person can utter such nonsense I didn't even know where to start. It's conversations like these that lead me to believe that we have no hope.   

"Hashem sometimes blinds the righteous so as to be able to carry out His will. There may be a Gezariah and to clothe it in Teva our leaders are being blinded to not say anything to stop it."
- Heard

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #506 on: September 29, 2020, 01:05:16 PM »
It's conversations like these that lead me to believe that we have no hope.

Conversations like that, and other posts on here in general, make me wonder about the specifics of the Torah approach to halacha and medicine. Is there a clear structure or guidance from the Gedolim, now and throughout history, on the balance between doctors and rabbonim when it comes to personal and public health? It seems like each rov (or even pulpit rabbi) seems to have a different approach as to how much doctors influence their piskei halacha and public guidance. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't a clear mesorah on how these things are dealt with. The lack of uniformity on the issue is literally costing lives.
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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #507 on: September 29, 2020, 01:31:19 PM »
Conversations like that, and other posts on here in general, make me wonder about the specifics of the Torah approach to halacha and medicine. Is there a clear structure or guidance from the Gedolim, now and throughout history, on the balance between doctors and rabbonim when it comes to personal and public health? It seems like each rov (or even pulpit rabbi) seems to have a different approach as to how much doctors influence their piskei halacha and public guidance. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't a clear mesorah on how these things are dealt with. The lack of uniformity on the issue is literally costing lives.
He actually quoted Rav Shmuel Kamenitsky and the "Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva" as his source for such a position - I don't know this to be true or not.

My personal feeling is that after Purim all the Shuls were shut down because no one really knew how the virus was transmitted and what was safe and what wasn't. There is a certain segment that feels that because the pendulum was swung to far to one side (which in hindsight it was) so now even with the virus starting to spiral out of control they have swung the pendulum to the extreme other side and refuse to budge to some sort of middle ground because they were "forced" to shut the Shuls in March/April and this now makes up for that somehow.
   

Offline Euclid

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #508 on: September 29, 2020, 01:34:45 PM »
He actually quoted Rav Shmuel Kamenitsky and some of the "Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva" as his source for such a position - I don't know this to be true or not.   
FTFH. They are most definitely not on the same page about this.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #509 on: September 29, 2020, 01:59:00 PM »
My personal feeling is that after Purim all the Shuls were shut down because no one really knew how the virus was transmitted and what was safe and what wasn't. There is a certain segment that feels that because the pendulum was swung to far to one side (which in hindsight it was) so now even with the virus starting to spiral out of control they have swung the pendulum to the extreme other side and refuse to budge to some sort of middle ground because they were "forced" to shut the Shuls in March/April and this now makes up for that somehow.
 
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #510 on: September 29, 2020, 02:01:13 PM »
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.
Agreed. However, this shouldn't even need leadership. What happened to common sense?

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #511 on: September 29, 2020, 02:04:09 PM »
Agreed. However, this shouldn't even need leadership. What happened to common sense?

Common sense was never as common as the phrase suggests.
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Offline Traveler718

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #512 on: September 29, 2020, 02:31:50 PM »
Very true reasoning. With such a great absence of leadership it's really about time for Moshiach already.


I have in mind the lack of clear guidance and leadership on these issues when saying the words השיבה שופטינו כבראשונה ויועציך כבתחילה והסר ממנו יגון ואנחה.

Offline Afrages6

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #513 on: September 29, 2020, 03:45:44 PM »
Conversations like that, and other posts on here in general, make me wonder about the specifics of the Torah approach to halacha and medicine. Is there a clear structure or guidance from the Gedolim, now and throughout history, on the balance between doctors and rabbonim when it comes to personal and public health? It seems like each rov (or even pulpit rabbi) seems to have a different approach as to how much doctors influence their piskei halacha and public guidance. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't a clear mesorah on how these things are dealt with. The lack of uniformity on the issue is literally costing lives.
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.

Offline David61

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #514 on: September 29, 2020, 04:33:08 PM »
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.

I disagree with that comment, both in spirit and in fact. The concept of Rosh Yeshiva began in Voloshin, and it could be argued that role represented a higher level of scholarship than the average local Rov.

In any event this pandemic is a very unique situation where there is tremendous confusion in metzius. Rarely does a medical issue become so political, involve so much false information, evolve so quickly, or reach this level of controversy in society, and therefore in halachic decision making.

There does however appear to be a correlation between "communities with respect for secular education" and "communities with a unified rule making rabbinic body" and the communities that have been closely "following the guidance by the conventional medical opinion".

Perhaps part of our nisayon is to not allow this to undermine respect for our leaders.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #515 on: September 29, 2020, 04:44:08 PM »
The mesorah was broken in a sense when the leaders went from being rabbonim to roshei yeshiva.

Very interesting that you say this;

My Rav is the Rav of a very large shul and daily fields hundreds of questions.

His father was the Rav of one of the larger communities in brooklyn and av beis din.

There was always from the beginning, clear medical guidance and advice.

I know I often come off as porek ohl, but I'm frustrated in general at people who both refuse to adapt citing mesora and as well just make up new things and ignoring mesora.

The ben sorer umoreh is described as naval birshut hatorah. If he ate trayf meat, it wouldn't apply.

If one stands in rabbinic authority, they need to understand the situation before paskening.

Gone are the days when it's about bringing your chicken to the Rav, it's about being a manhig.

"But my Rav doesn't involve himself in outside shtusim"

What kind of Rav is this ?!? Yes we made parallel to the situation in Europe in 1938.

There was tons and tons of evidence to support precautions, there was even more unknowns which should have raised a flag of simply "well, it's a shema or a bari or whatever, err on the side of caution"

So many members in this forum trashed me, said I have no idea what I'm talking about etc .

Maybe I don't, all I advised, was caution.

Sure I find the mask uncomfortable, it fogs up my glasses (I can't really understand why anyone needs glasses during shul.. unless you're blind as a bat without them or nearsighted)

I saw many people make real efforts, one guy wore a mask over his mouth but not nose, rather than half doing it, he wears a plastic face shield too.

Reminds me too of th sign I saw in this coffee shop bathroom "employees must wash hands before returning to work" and under it

"You too, don't be gross"

Oh wow! Washing your hands with soap or using sanitizer is Soo bad! Maybe it goes with the chareidi prohibition against showers ?

Watching the elderly generation of rabbanim and carriers of mesora die out, is sad

Reminds me of Rav matisyahu solomon speech at (11th?) Siyum hashas 

I remember very clearly how Rav solomon said "if all the roshey yeshivas, if all the talmeidei chachamim, if all the ehrliche yidden were still alive, imagine how much more tangible our mesora would be"

What's wrong with a Rav saying "we don't know . Err on the side of caution?!?!"

When did yiddishkeit become about being comftarble? Are they extending these leniency to all sheilos?


Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #516 on: September 29, 2020, 04:58:03 PM »
My understanding is that in the past, the "average" Rav didn't pasken in medical metziyus, unless he was also a doctor (such as Rav Tendler).

If the doctors said x is dangerous, that used to move the starting point of Halacha to "what do we do about it?"

With covid, in some communities, it seems like the Rav is now paskening on whether covid is or isn't dangerous, when there's a near unanimous medical consensus that it is.

I see the role of Psak here to decide if it's better to shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (for example). Or if it's better to postpone a boy laining his parsha because the shul is shutdown, or for him to lain to a small group in person and broadcast on zoom.

It just seems that rabbonim are somewhat out of their lane to be deciding whether masks do or don't work, or whether a covid + person can safely be in shul.

I'll note in the YU community, Rav Schechter and Rav Willig have written Psak and answered so many questions. None of them attempt to arbitrate the science - they only attempt to answer the best Halacha as if applies with that premise.

Offline ari3

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #517 on: September 29, 2020, 06:31:24 PM »
My understanding is that in the past, the "average" Rav didn't pasken in medical metziyus, unless he was also a doctor (such as Rav Tendler).

If the doctors said x is dangerous, that used to move the starting point of Halacha to "what do we do about it?"

With covid, in some communities, it seems like the Rav is now paskening on whether covid is or isn't dangerous, when there's a near unanimous medical consensus that it is.

I see the role of Psak here to decide if it's better to shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (for example). Or if it's better to postpone a boy laining his parsha because the shul is shutdown, or for him to lain to a small group in person and broadcast on zoom.

It just seems that rabbonim are somewhat out of their lane to be deciding whether masks do or don't work, or whether a covid + person can safely be in shul.

I'll note in the YU community, Rav Schechter and Rav Willig have written Psak and answered so many questions. None of them attempt to arbitrate the science - they only attempt to answer the best Halacha as if applies with that premise.
What you and some others fail to grasp is that the rabbonim aren't paskening whether corona is dangerous. They are paskening whether the current level of risk warrants shutting down our yeshivos and shuls or not, especially at this time of year that we need all the zchusim we can get.

The psak of most of the gedolim (outside MO circles) was to neither shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (at least for non high risk people), but to daven as normal so as not to detract from the davening and accept the associated risks.

This virus was brought here by הקב"ה and the question is what does he want our reaction to be. The question is not whether the doctors say there is some danger involved, but whether the danger of shutting the yeshivos or not davening properly outweighs the current danger of the virus.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #518 on: September 29, 2020, 06:32:07 PM »
What you and some others fail to grasp is that the rabbonim aren't paskening whether corona is dangerous. They are paskening whether the current level of risk warrants shutting down our yeshivos and shuls or not, especially at this time of year that we need all the zchusim we can get.

The psak of most of the gedolim (outside MO circles) was to neither shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (at least for non high risk people), but to daven as normal so as not to detract from the davening and accept the associated risks.

This virus was brought here by הקב"ה and the question is what does he want our reaction to be. The question is not whether the doctors say there is some danger involved, but whether the danger of shutting the yeshivos or not davening properly outweighs the current danger of the virus.
Wearing masks and distancing doesn't seem to detract from davening...

Offline ari3

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #519 on: September 29, 2020, 06:42:18 PM »
Wearing masks and distancing doesn't seem to detract from davening...
Masks sure do. Distancing is also a practical problem, with shuls packed yomim noraim where are you going to distance. Some places (like Chaim Berlin and others) made extra minyonim to spread things out but that still doesn't get proper distancing,