Author Topic: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?  (Read 57519 times)

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #520 on: September 29, 2020, 06:45:33 PM »
What you and some others fail to grasp is that the rabbonim aren't paskening whether corona is dangerous. They are paskening whether the current level of risk warrants shutting down our yeshivos and shuls or not, especially at this time of year that we need all the zchusim we can get.

The psak of most of the gedolim (outside MO circles) was to neither shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (at least for non high risk people), but to daven as normal so as not to detract from the davening and accept the associated risks.

This virus was brought here by הקב"ה and the question is what does he want our reaction to be. The question is not whether the doctors say there is some danger involved, but whether the danger of shutting the yeshivos or not davening properly outweighs the current danger of the virus.

This is false. If it were solely about the importance of Torah u'Tefilah, you would see strict adherence to safety measures outside of those venues, and even a number of measures within those activities, up to the point of taking away from the davening and learning. This is not the case. The rabbonim have effectively paskened that Covid is not a medical concern b'shum oifen. And herein lies my question: where is the mesorah that allows for rabbonim to override medical mandate? What is the basis in halacha?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 06:55:04 PM by Lurker »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #521 on: September 29, 2020, 06:54:49 PM »
Masks sure do.
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #522 on: September 29, 2020, 07:02:09 PM »
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
If only masks were brought down as a chumra in the Mishnah Berura.

Offline yelped

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #523 on: September 29, 2020, 07:10:27 PM »
I think this circles back to what people called Rabbanim today and what Rabbonim actually are. :-X

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #524 on: September 29, 2020, 07:11:32 PM »
If only masks were brought down as a chumra in the Mishnah Berura.

It is. Didn't help. The mishnah berura only brings it down regarding a disease going around, and everyone knows COVID is a hoax and there's nothing going around. 🙄

Offline Luvisrael

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #525 on: September 29, 2020, 07:15:38 PM »
Oh please.  We daven in wool jackets, wool blankets, and uncomfortable hats and sheitels. But the mask is where we draw the line?
yes those things make you hot but dont restrict your breathing

Offline dasmo801

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #526 on: September 29, 2020, 07:19:21 PM »
This is false. If it were solely about the importance of Torah u'Tefilah, you would see strict adherence to safety measures outside of those venues, and even a number of measures within those activities, up to the point of taking away from the davening and learning. This is not the case. The rabbonim have effectively paskened that Covid is not a medical concern b'shum oifen. And herein lies my question: where is the mesorah that allows for rabbonim to override medical mandate? What is the basis in halacha?

It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.

Offline Dan

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #527 on: September 29, 2020, 07:20:54 PM »
yes those things make you hot but dont restrict your breathing
There are plenty of solutions that don't restrict breathing.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #528 on: September 29, 2020, 07:21:08 PM »
It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.
And if we limit the crowd sizes for weddings, people might think covid is dangerous.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #529 on: September 29, 2020, 07:22:54 PM »
My understanding is that in the past, the "average" Rav didn't pasken in medical metziyus, unless he was also a doctor (such as Rav Tendler).

If the doctors said x is dangerous, that used to move the starting point of Halacha to "what do we do about it?"

With covid, in some communities, it seems like the Rav is now paskening on whether covid is or isn't dangerous, when there's a near unanimous medical consensus that it is.

I see the role of Psak here to decide if it's better to shorten davening to limit exposure or daven outside (for example). Or if it's better to postpone a boy laining his parsha because the shul is shutdown, or for him to lain to a small group in person and broadcast on zoom.

It just seems that rabbonim are somewhat out of their lane to be deciding whether masks do or don't work, or whether a covid + person can safely be in shul.

I'll note in the YU community, Rav Schechter and Rav Willig have written Psak and answered so many questions. None of them attempt to arbitrate the science - they only attempt to answer the best Halacha as if applies with that premise.
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #530 on: September 29, 2020, 07:23:07 PM »
Masks sure do.

Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #531 on: September 29, 2020, 07:33:27 PM »
Masks sure do.
To say that this was part of their psak is sheker gamur and putting words in their mouth to bend the halacha to what you find to be convenient. Now what your complaint about the MO?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #532 on: September 29, 2020, 07:34:56 PM »
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.


You are overdoing this to the point that you are not being honest with yourself.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #533 on: September 29, 2020, 07:45:17 PM »
and uncomfortable hats
Are you referring to the “shteimel” that the Bobobovitch rabbi wears ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1310977907779661829

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #534 on: September 29, 2020, 07:45:46 PM »
Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.

I'll be honest with you. Masks barely bother me breathing wise personally, but I see they do bother and affect some people tremendously. I don't think they're just being drama queens- I think it legitimately affects different people very differently. I'm not saying that people shouldn't wear masks if it bothers them, but dismissing their discomfort out of hand because it doesn't affect you that way does not seem right to me. (It took me a bit to realize this also, that some people legitimately can barely handle certain masks. Different people's bodies are designed differently.)

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #535 on: September 29, 2020, 07:49:37 PM »
It's a slippery slope. If we have to wear masks in supermarkets some people might think they have to wear it in shul.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #536 on: September 29, 2020, 07:59:21 PM »
There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.

This is not that, and I know that you know that. Bringing it up dumps a heavy dose of intellectual dishonesty into a conversation that doesn't need any more of it.
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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #537 on: September 29, 2020, 08:00:18 PM »
And if we limit the crowd sizes for weddings, people might think covid is dangerous.
If we limit the size of weddings, people might not spend money they don't have to impress people they don't like.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #538 on: September 29, 2020, 08:01:40 PM »
yes those things make you hot but dont restrict your breathing

Restrict your breathing? Are you wearing a gas mask, or something else that is not air permeable?

I wore a cloth mask while laining both days on RH (outdoors) and it certainly gets warm, but I switched to a KN95 while davening and immediately felt cooler.

I wore a cloth mask laining on YK morning (indoors) and felt a bit warm when I started laining, but by shlishi it was back to normal. I again switched to the KN95 after finishing and had the immediate cooling.

I actually forgot to change out of the KN95 for laining at mincha (oops) and that was the only time that I felt stifled, but that was a short laining.

You really need to experiment with masks in a non-davening setting and see what works for you.

If I was the Baal Mussaf/Shacharis I don't know if I could have done a mask for 2-3 hrs of straight chazanus, but for laining on an average Shabbos (I've been on every second or third Shabbos since Shavuous) and giving a daf shiur, I can't say that I felt that my breathing was restricted in a surgical or cloth mask.

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Re: Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?
« Reply #539 on: September 29, 2020, 08:02:45 PM »
Fake news. I davened with a mask the entire Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and it was the easiest fast I've had in years. I hated the mask at first, but after playing around with different types and wearing them when necessary I've gotten used to it. I mean, I rip it off as fast as the next guy when it's not needed, but the drama over it is a bit like my toddler arbitrarily deciding wearing his socks is like walking on spikes.
+1 for me and +20 for the entire minyan I davened with.
And I was the shaliach tzibbur for shachris.
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