Is Covid Spiking in Boro Park?

[yuneeq]

There is a long history of scores of torah leaders over hundreds of years up to and including the present telling people emphatically not to operate when doctors said it was a death sentence not to operate, just to give one example of direct instructions to contravene clear medical metzius. The stories are too numerous to dismiss out of hand. The Chazon Ish is one notable gadol who had several such stories, but ask around and you will find many people who can relate similar personal experiences across the spectrum; litvish, chassidish, sefardi, etc. The MO community may be more strictly medically  centered in their mesorah, but the above cannot be blithely dismissed as against Halacha.

There is obviously more than just the doctors opinion and a Mishnah Berurah, the are many factors which can change the psak, and these Gedalia were able to see the totality of a picture that others did not see. Not that every shul Rav is on that level but it is far from black and white.

You forgot how the story with chazon ish always ends, they didn’t do the procedure and the guy survived. They did the procedure the way he said to do it, and he survived. And these are very relevant stories that I’m glad you brought to light, because the outcome teaches us the moral of the story, if the guy died, then the moral of the story is pretty worthless.

Now if I may oblige, how many of the rabbonim you are relying on correctly predicted the outcome of the 1st wave but are saying the 2nd wave is nothing to worry about?

[hllulbh1]

Can we agree that in communities where mask wearing is prevalent there seems to be a lower incidence of complaints and vice versa?

I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people don’t complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didn’t feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.

[yuneeq]

I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people don’t complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didn’t feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.

The problem with your last paragraph - masks are warranted before people need to wear them. Like I’ve said many times, the more serious we take COVID, the more of a joke it will be. The less serious we treat it, the worse things will turn out. Better to overreact then to not react at all.

Personally speaking - I’m fine with wearing a mask wherever I feel it required to. Don’t feel they are extremely difficult to wear but obviously if I can do without I would prefer that. If I need a breather, move off to the side and open my mask to breathe. In my office I take it off when I’m alone and no one is around. On Yom kippur I was a chazzan with a mask on most of the day, unless no one was around. Wasn’t too bad.

[hllulbh1]

Understand that is your position.

Mine is when there are virtually no cases for 5 months masks are not what is making the difference. It was the lack of virus. And when someone got it they stayed home and so did their family. What changed the equation is when the virus did come and people with symptoms didn’t want to inconvenience themselves and still sent their kids to camp then school and came to shul and didn’t want to get tested because of the inconvenience if they were found positive, etc. Now we have a wave and some Shuls are having to close, at least indoors for now.

[chevron]

I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people don’t complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didn’t feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.

Masks doesn't seem to be preventing people from talking to each other.

Yes, when I take off the mask it seems to geshmak.

But it's still childish, I hate wearing a bicycle helmet, it makes me sweat and I love the breeze in my hair ..

Any Rav or Rosh yeshiva that doesn't understand community spread, brings up bigger issues.

Is there concern if community members say "Rabbi, I find it hard to daven with a mask on"

And so they say, don't wear a mask, rather than people rushing through davening or staying home.

What if I say, Rabbi, I find it hard to walk to shul on Shabbat, you ok with me driving ?

[hllulbh1]

The question was “do people complain in mask wearing communities?”, to which I responded “YES”. I was not saying, “and therefore they shouldn’t wear them“.

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someone’s ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

I understand  community spread, which is why masks in my community are probably warranted now. But when there wasn’t or in the future won’t be a COVID case for 3 months in any shul that I daven at or have heard of in my community, there is no virus to spread. That is when I didn’t/won’t agree they are warranted.

[shaulyaakov]

The question was “do people complain in mask wearing communities?”, to which I responded “YES”. I was not saying, “and therefore they shouldn’t wear them“.

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someone’s ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

I understand  community spread, which is why masks in my community are probably warranted now. But when there wasn’t or in the future won’t be a COVID case for 3 months in any shul that I daven at or have heard of in my community, there is no virus to spread. That is when I didn’t/won’t agree they are warranted.

The issue is that the decision to not wear masks wasn't rescinded until there were already hundreds of new cases (and in some places, still hasn't been rescinded).

If you don't keep it up, it's very hard to stop the wave. That's why the first wave was so bad +we were caught off guard.

[Lurker]

The question was “do people complain in mask wearing communities?”, to which I responded “YES”. I was not saying, “and therefore they shouldn’t wear them“.

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someone’s ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

I understand  community spread, which is why masks in my community are probably warranted now. But when there wasn’t or in the future won’t be a COVID case for 3 months in any shul that I daven at or have heard of in my community, there is no virus to spread. That is when I didn’t/won’t agree they are warranted.

I hear what you're saying. Here's the one variable you're missing: presymptomatic spread. One guy comes to a shul where masks aren't worn, and you can have 100 cases in a day.

The problem with preventive measures is that it is very hard to quantify their success. By definition, if they are successful, you will not see the fruits of your hardships. A big reason that Baltimore managed to stay relatively healthy is, like you said, when someone presented with symptoms, the family stayed home. A bigger reason is because when that sick person was presymptomatic, s/he was in a community where masks are very prevalent in public settings, so the spread was minimized during that person's most dangerous phase. If your community hadn't gone through all that "unnecessary" discomfort, there's a high likelihood your first major outbreak would have happened already.

[chevron]

Holy smokes!

https://collive.com/mask-patrols-to-fine-people-without-masks-in-nyc/

Reading the comments here and WOW it's like so many believe covif is fake?!?

[SSLPhD]

Masks are disruptive to davening from my experience. If it is impacting someone’s ability to daven with kavana, that is not childish. If you want to dismiss or deny that is your prerogative.

On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.

[good sam]

Understand that is your position.

Mine is when there are virtually no cases for 5 months masks are not what is making the difference. It was the lack of virus. And when someone got it they stayed home and so did their family. What changed the equation is when the virus did come and people with symptoms didn’t want to inconvenience themselves and still sent their kids to camp then school and came to shul and didn’t want to get tested because of the inconvenience if they were found positive, etc. Now we have a wave and some Shuls are having to close, at least indoors for now.

I generally agree with this.

[yitzgar]

so many believe covfefe is fake?!?

Ftfy

[yitzgar]

On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.

+ in addition to many who feel unable to come to shul to begin with (whether high-risk individuals or not), because of a lack of mask wearing etc.

[yuneeq]

On the flip side, the thought of non-mask wearers spreading disease is disruptive to other people's davening.  It not being your experience is irrelevant.

If God wanted us to have perfect kavana then He wouldn’t have brought us a disease that requires wearing masks in shul to prevent transmission. But He did, and it’s a nisayon that He wants us to overcome. Same for davening in a small minyan for RH/YK instead of a huge packed roaring minyan. He wants to see us to do our best despite the circumstances, not to ignore them completely.

[aygart]

I can agree as far as wearing it in stores or even sitting in shul listening to krias Hatorah.

Speaking from a community that wears masks, I cannot agree that people don’t complain about davening with a mask. Many find it difficult to daven in a mask.

It is disruptive to davening. Standing staring at a patient for 6 hours in the OR is not the same as enunciating the words of pesukei dzimra for 30 minutes on Shabbos into a mask. It gots hot very fast, and I have tried many different masks.

But I do wear a mask because that is the rule of my shul and most others in my town.

Up until now I didn’t feel that masks were warranted. In the last week or so probably hundreds of cases have been imported to our midst so now that there is a first wave I feel masks may be warranted and will be wearing unbegrudgingly.

I respect that you were able to adjust your position due to changing facts on the ground, something so many others have been unable to do in either directing.

[Sam Finkelstein]

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-how-orthodox-jews-can-attack-covid-20200929-dvjiqgvrkbdhhix5kib5gzfzdi-story.html

[iwlw2]

And that's really the core of this. People seem unable (on both sides) to a) adapt their thinking and actions in response to changing circumstances (and accept the facts of those changing circumstances) and b) allow their brains to mature to the point where things are not all binary choices, it does not have to be all or nothing, even some people wearing masks some of the time is better than nothing. It's not about trusting/believing/knowing that mask wearing etc. is absolutely the end all be all or that we have to all stay locked up in our hermetically-sealed basements to survive, you do what you can to mitigate the risk to yourself and others as much as you can, certainly when it does not involve undue hardships. And sorry, being a little uncomfortable when wearing a mask does not rise to the level of undue hardships. And for those that really can't take it, take breaks or take it off every once in a while, it will still be helpful when you are able to wear it. Is this not simple and logical???

[Yehuda57]

Yup yup yup

People need to give themselves permission to reevaluate the situation no matter how firmly they may have dug their heels in.

If your closely held beliefs are out of touch with reality and if hearing anything to the contrary makes you mad and causes you to become overly defensive and aggressive about your position, take a deep calming breath and allow new information to enter your brain. Nobody will judge you for changing your mind due to changing circumstances.

[hllulbh1]

If God wanted us to have perfect kavana then He wouldn’t have brought us a disease that requires wearing masks in shul to prevent transmission. But He did, and it’s a nisayon that He wants us to overcome. Same for davening in a small minyan for RH/YK instead of a huge packed roaring minyan. He wants to see us to do our best despite the circumstances, not to ignore them completely.

This comment is in the wrong thread. It belongs in the God Tells Me His Thoughts thread.

[shaulyaakov]

This comment is in the wrong thread. It belongs in the God Tells Me His Thoughts thread.

Please.

We've already gotten the other side of "Hashem sent this virus we have no control over. We need to daven in packed shuls more than ever."

Everyone is willing to superimpose whatever hashkafah they want on it.