Author Topic: What is Tznius?  (Read 6903 times)

Offline justaregularguy

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What is Tznius?
« on: September 06, 2020, 03:45:51 PM »
I’m a brutally honest guy. I can’t say I always only see things in black and white, but sometimes I don’t think there’s a rational answer to certain things.
I go down the street and see a father and daughter. He doesn’t look particularly modern (not that it makes a difference, it just surprises me more) and the daughter has short sleeve shirt and skirt above the knees. Sorry, I noticed.
A few questions:
1) is there a universal definition of tznius at minimum? Are there Orthodox Rabbis who have proven above the knees/elbows is still tznius?
2) what’s in the minds of people who dress less than tznius? I’m asking a very innocent question here. I do things wrong in my life I’m certainly not perfect, but do they see themselves as doing something wrong? What is a justification for it? I really want to know what people sincerely argue for their mode of dress.
No, do not drag in other topics within Judaism to compare and contrast or other communities-make your own thread if you want.
3) I also understand that this is certainly not a new phenomenon ; in fact being MORE tznius is the newer of the concepts - just look at old weddings with gedolim in them and the women have short sleeves. I wonder if the people then had the same goals and values as the modern orthodox community has today or did they just not know of a different lifestyle? I know my grandmother dressed like that then and she certainly wouldn’t be called modern nowadays , not at all.
4) I’m not talking about people in more frum communities who dress less tznius bc I think they are doing it to be rebellious rather than a lifestyle they grew up with. Also, I don’t want to broadbrush the topic bc I know everyone is different and may have a slightly different reason for doing things - but it still looks like a generally accepted concept that people accepted almost sub consciously.

Can we have a conversation about this? I would particularly love to hear (or read articles) from people or rabbis who work in these communities and understand the topic.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:50:04 PM by justaregularguy »
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Offline grodnoking

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2020, 03:56:46 PM »
How old is the daughter?
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2020, 05:22:49 PM »
How old is the daughter?
in this case she must have been a young teen.
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Offline m65

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2020, 05:35:47 PM »
here we go....

Online moko

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2020, 05:48:48 PM »
3) I also understand that this is certainly not a new phenomenon ; in fact being MORE tznius is the newer of the concepts - just look at old weddings with gedolim in them and the women have short sleeves. I wonder if the people then had the same goals and values as the modern orthodox community has today or did they just not know of a different lifestyle? I know my grandmother dressed like that then and she certainly wouldn’t be called modern nowadays , not at all.
for the sake of brutal honesty.... You mention it being a new phenomenon because your comparing with a specific time and place. Have you also compared it to what would be the chareidi communities of Eastern Europe? Such as the Chasidishe and litvish communities of Eastern Europe? First you need to gather and study all the data before making such statements as fact.
I think you'll find the situation on both ends was somewhat similar in Europe as well

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2020, 05:59:48 PM »
for the sake of brutal honesty.... You mention it being a new phenomenon because your comparing with a specific time and place. Have you also compared it to what would be the chareidi communities of Eastern Europe? Such as the Chasidishe and litvish communities of Eastern Europe? First you need to gather and study all the data before making such statements as fact.
I think you'll find the situation on both ends was somewhat similar in Europe as well
I have no idea what you mean in this post. first of all you quote me as saying "its a new phenomenon" when i actually said its not a new phenomenon so therefore i have no idea where you're going with this post.
I'd love to hear what you really mean.
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Offline Happyguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2020, 06:17:38 PM »

3) I also understand that this is certainly not a new phenomenon ; in fact being MORE tznius is the newer of the concepts - just look at old weddings with gedolim in them and the women have short sleeves. I wonder if the people then had the same goals and values as the modern orthodox community has today or did they just not know of a different lifestyle? I know my grandmother dressed like that then and she certainly wouldn’t be called modern nowadays , not at all.


Could be to do with Das Yehudis

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2020, 06:25:02 PM »
Could be to do with Das Yehudis
gosh maybe its not the right time for this topic. whats with these half hearted responses?? what the heck is das yehudis? >:(
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Online moko

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2020, 06:51:00 PM »
I have no idea what you mean in this post. first of all you quote me as saying "its a new phenomenon" when i actually said its not a new phenomenon so therefore i have no idea where you're going with this post.
I'd love to hear what you really mean.
did you not write
In fact being MORE tznius is the newer of the concepts - just look at old weddings with gedolim in them and the women have short sleeves.
?
I'm saying that I don't believe you're correct. Especially not based a several anecdotes from the USA in the 30s-60s... The communities which you see as "more tznius", were more tznuis in prewar times as well. While the communities you see as "less tznius" we're probably that way in prewar times as well. Like you said it's not a new phenomenon, except both ways aren't new.

Offline aygart

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2020, 07:20:28 PM »
did you not write ?
I'm saying that I don't believe you're correct. Especially not based a several anecdotes from the USA in the 30s-60s... The communities which you see as "more tznius", were more tznuis in prewar times as well. While the communities you see as "less tznius" we're probably that way in prewar times as well. Like you said it's not a new phenomenon, except both ways aren't new.
How are you classifying communities?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online moko

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2020, 07:22:37 PM »
How are you classifying communities?
I'm not... Just that neither is a new phenomenon....
And now I'm out....

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2020, 07:55:36 PM »
did you not write ?
I'm saying that I don't believe you're correct. Especially not based a several anecdotes from the USA in the 30s-60s... The communities which you see as "more tznius", were more tznuis in prewar times as well. While the communities you see as "less tznius" we're probably that way in prewar times as well. Like you said it's not a new phenomenon, except both ways aren't new.
look man idk what ur talking about. i refer to the yeshivish community as the "newer concept" community which is more tznius, and the less tznius is everyone else. You clearly are defining the "more tznius" communities as something else completely bc yeshivish didnt exist then. Im referring to contemporary yeshiva/yeshivish communites.
I'm not... Just that neither is a new phenomenon....
And now I'm out....
But back to the point, it looks like dress is viewed differently now than then (50 yrs ago). like I said , if my grandparents grew up with the values they have now (in the yeshivish community) they wouldnt dress the way they did. So while its not new but i think the mindset is diff then than now
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Offline yesitsme

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2020, 08:00:04 PM »
Its not what hat you wear its why you wear that hat
["-"]

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2020, 08:03:09 PM »
Following

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2020, 08:51:20 PM »
what the heck is das yehudis? >:(
Brutally honest indeed

Offline yesitsme

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2020, 08:54:39 PM »
["-"]

Offline lubaby

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2020, 11:15:56 PM »
I go down the street and see a father and daughter. He doesn’t look particularly modern (not that it makes a difference, it just surprises me more) and the daughter has short sleeve shirt and skirt above the knees. Sorry, I noticed.
A few questions:
1) is there a universal definition of tznius at minimum? Are there Orthodox Rabbis who have proven above the knees/elbows is still tznius?
2) what’s in the minds of people who dress less than tznius? I’m asking a very innocent question here. I do things wrong in my life I’m certainly not perfect, but do they see themselves as doing something wrong? What is a justification for it? I really want to know what people sincerely argue for their mode of dress.
This makes all the difference. Different people have different rules.

And even if the father (that you saw / were “able to tell”) is not Modern, it’s possible the mother is more, and that can influence fashion / styles for the children.

Here’s from the Wikipedia page about Tzniut (read full page if you want more insight to your questions).
Quote
Haredi women wear blouses covering the elbow and collarbone, and skirts that cover the knees while standing and sitting. The ideal sleeve and skirt length varies by community. Some women try not to follow fashion, while others wear fashionable, but modest, clothing. Haredi women avoid skirts with slits, preferring instead kick pleats. They also avoid overly eye-catching colors, especially bright red, as well as clothing that is tight. Many will only wear closed-toe shoes, and always wear stockings, the thickness of which varies by community.

Modern Orthodox women also usually adhere to tzniut and dress in a modest fashion (as compared to the general society),[8] but their communal definition does not necessarily include covering their elbows, collarbones, or knees, and may allow for wearing pants, although some Modern Orthodox women will, when in front of men or in public, wear skirts that cover their knees, preferably loose ones, and cover their elbows and cleavage.

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2020, 11:50:52 PM »
This makes all the difference. Different people have different rules.

And even if the father (that you saw / were “able to tell”) is not Modern, it’s possible the mother is more, and that can influence fashion / styles for the children.
ok im not sure where i was going with the specific case there, its just that this little episode spurred me to post this topic. But still it sounds like youre justifying her style bc her mother may be more modern. And whats the basis for the mothers decision? I'm trying to understand if indeed the actual limitations of elbows and knees is universal or not?

Here’s from the Wikipedia page about Tzniut (read full page if you want more insight to your questions).
wikipedia is stating the bare bones facts of whats going on out there.

"Modern Orthodox women also usually adhere to tzniut and dress in a modest fashion (as compared to the general society),[8] but their communal definition does not necessarily include covering their elbows..."

but from where do they base their communal definition?
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Offline Happyguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2020, 11:55:46 PM »

Here’s from the Wikipedia page about Tzniut (read full page if you want more insight to your questions).

Who gave Wikipedia Semicha? OP was asking where is the halachic basis for them to do it - not do ppl do it.

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: What is Tznius?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2020, 12:00:53 AM »
Who gave Wikipedia Semicha? OP was asking where is the halachic basis for them to do it - not do ppl do it.
but from where do they base their communal definition?

yep thank you thats my q
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